Note: The following transcript is created by both humans and AI, so despite our best attempts may contain errors.
Bull: Today is Thursday, July 10, 2025, 4pm Pacific Standard Time. This is Brian Bull, lead interviewer and director of the Public Radio Oral History Project. Today, our guest is BJ Leiderman, a composer whose theme music has been heard by millions of public radio listeners for decades. His most well-known compositions include the theme for Morning Edition, which was used for nearly 40 years, as well as compositions for Weekend Edition, Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me, Science Friday, and American Public Media's Marketplace.
BJ Leiderman, thank you so much for joining us.
Leiderman: Hey there, Brian. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it, it's an honor doing this.
Bull: Absolutely! It's great to meet the man behind the music. Some biographical information first, please, BJ. When were you born? And what's your hometown?
Leiderman: I was born on Valentine's Day, 1956 in Norfolk, Virginia. Wow, very early in the morning. So my mother never ceased telling me, reminded me all the time of how hard that was.
Bull: And were you christened “BJ”, or is it shorthand for something?
Leiderman: Well, the short story behind it is that mom and dad could not agree on a name. “Bernard” is for a distant grandfather on one side, and J is for “Joseph,” a grandfather on the other side. So they said, “We'll do that, Bernard J, and we'll call him BJ.” And that's what I think I heard. That was the story. I'm sticking to it.
Bull: It is the moniker that we know you best by. And did you grow up there in Norfolk?
Leiderman: Virginia Beach, which is the sister city. That's where I grew up, when they first in my first year of my life, almost before the house was being built in Virginia Beach, they would my crib was actually a top dresser drawer that was swaddled in blankets. And I don't know to this day, I forgot to ask her: “Did you close the drawer at night? You know when you put me in it?”
So it was, it was a hotel, Hotel Mayflower on Atlantic Avenue. Virginia Beach was where I was born. And yeah, so Virginia Beach was my stomping grounds until I left for college in 1973.
Bull: Alrighty. And where did you go for high school? And then where did you go to college?
Leiderman: Yeah, high school, the system in Virginia Beach was elementary school up to grade seven and eighth grade started high school. There was no middle high and so we had the rude awakening as eighth graders being thrown in with, you know, seniors who wanted to throw us into lockers and all that stuff, that was all groovy. So it was Princess Anne High School, and I immediately became a drummer, percussionist in the marching band and the symphonic band, depending on what season it was, but I've never had more fun in my life than hanging a snare marching snare drum on me and being in the line of marching band during a parade, or coming onto the field and doing, you know, half time maneuvers. It was fabulous.
Bull: There’s a special fraternity or kinship I have found among people who used to be in marching band. There is just something about being able to march and play an instrument in stifling heats on a football field in layers and still do a synchronized performance.
Leiderman: Oh yeah, that was that was really tough. I guess it was. We did these we were the first high school in the area to do circle drills, which means, you know, if you were looking from an aerial view down to the field, like flowers, concentric circles coming like a Busby Berkeley effect, for those of you who are old enough and you know, so we didn't have the hash mark lines to march, You know, to do the math by but it was and parades were fabulous, because if you were a drummer, you're the only instruments that doesn't have, don't have any only players who don't have an instrument to your lips while you're marching. So we were, you know, cracking wise in the back there on our in the back line. It was fun. I enjoyed that greatly.
Bull: And I understand, too that you studied at American University there in Washington, D.C. with one of –
Leiderman: I wouldn't go so far as to say studied!
Bull: Okay, you were -- you were present at American University, and also where broadcast journalism great Edward Bliss taught.
Leiderman: I understand, yes, we have to put a shout out. Top of the list for Ed Bliss.
A few years earlier, Bob Edwards was studying under Professor Bliss. For those who don't know Ed Bliss actually did, when we say, write the book. He wrote the student's textbook for first- and second-year broadcast journalism, and it was an honor to learn how to write a simple, direct, effective sentence for the ear. You know, he'd made it so simple. He said, “Look, this is radio news, radio broadcasting. It's the only medium where, if you're writing a news story, the listener, you know, once it's said, once you said your sentence, it's gone. It's not like they're reading a newspaper. They could, you know, turn back a page to reread and get it better. You've got to get the idea across to them the first time in a simple way,” and that's the that's probably the only thing I ever learned in school. Stuck with me.
Bull: But what an important lesson, and now that's one that Bob Edwards liked to repeat to us. I used to work with Bob Edwards on the overnight crew in the 90s.
Leiderman: Oh man. And I wish I hung around there more. I wish I knew him better.
Bull: Yeah, it was, he was legendary.
Leiderman: I was sort of, I was on the periphery, although, thanks to Skip Pizzi, who’s the name that you'll want to remember. That's the reason I'm talking to you now. You know, I could walk in the building and, you know, chat up anybody and see what people are doing. I found it fascinating. I don't know why I didn't go in to journalism. I don't understand what. Oh, I know what happened! I wrote the theme the morning. My whole life changed. Oh, my God.
Bull: I was gonna say you've the name recognition that many reporters wish they still had –
Leiderman: -- and I think Scott Pizzi and Jim Russell are both to thank for that.
Bull: That gets me to my very next question. I think what you've already started easing us into here. BJ, how did your initial introduction to NPR come to pass?
So I was, I had, let's say I had under studied my way out of Virginia Tech as my first college, 1973, '74 and I took a break, and I actually was a cameraman at the CBS television affiliate in Norfolk, Virginia for a summer. And the year after that, anyway, then I asked my folks, if I go back to school, and they said, if you just lay off those drugs and study, we'll send you to school. So it was a 1977 American University, ‘77 or ‘78 maybe it was, yeah, Skip Pizzi. Called me now. He was close family friend, his girlfriend at the time, whom he later married, Geri Calkins to become Geri Pizzi. She was the daughter of my grandmother's best friend down in in Florida. Hallandale, Florida. Those were the days.
Anyway, Skip called me up and said, "Hey, how would you like to write a demo, do a demo for a new morning news show that NPR is cooking up?". And I said, "Wow, yeah." And he set me up with a meeting with Jim Russell. And Jim gave me the ballpark, you know, stats of what I needed to do, as far as the audience they were trying to reach.
And specifically, and this is a very interesting directive, the programming that most member stations were going to be coming out of early in the morning, five and six o'clock hour, was classical music. A lot of that was, you know, just pre-programmed stuff that was rolling so and I don't know if it was Jim or later on the new producer, Jay Kernis, but let me get finished with Jim.
He gave me the directions. It was spring break. I believe I went home. Wrote this thing (mimics Morning Edition theme) very quickly on my mother's piano. I was, I had, I was in a band also, anyway, the guitar player in this band had a small recording studio with a four track TEAC, reel-to-reel tape recorder, and I had a cheesy...it wasn't a real synthesizer. It was the era. It was by Kumar. It was called an orchestrator, and it made cheesy French horn sound, cheesy piano, a bass, a cheesy string line.
So those four instruments I recorded onto four different tracks of the reel to reel and mixed down using, and I don't know if anybody even remembers these things, it was a box, a switch box, where the switches, you could switch left channel center or right for each of the four tracks from Radio Shack. Okay, the cables went in, you know, the four cables went in the top, and it came out stereo cables the other end of the box that is so analog. Oh, if you know, so, you know, I, I sweat it over. "Okay, what's good? Okay, obviously the bass is in the middle. The French horn melody is in the middle. We'll put the horns left in this." There's no panning. It was hard left, hard right.
And mixed down to a cassette. (The) cassette came back to Jim Russell. Jim Russell said, “perfect.” And then Jim Russell left. He left. He went on to do his own, you know, open his start his own consulting business, show doctor. But before he left, and this is the magic moment when Jay Kernis took over.
The way the story was told to me is that he was in one of the creative meetings that they had every morning or every weekend, he brought the cassette in and put it on the table and said, “This is Leiderman’s demo. We like it. Use it.”
So Jay took it from there, and it was me and Jay working out all the different, you know, versions of the theme that were to comprise the first theme package. Now I need to say here at this point, that at that point and even now, I did not know how to read music. I couldn't notate, I couldn't read it. I could follow chord charts. I still do that.
So I knew that I had a string line and a horn section, and I had a very good friend, an amazing jazz piano player named Dan Latt, who lived in DC, and he basically got players together for me and sat with me on the piano and listened to my - to that demo cassette, and notated, made an arrangement for the strings and the horns. Were there any strings? Were the strings synthesized?
I don't think we had real strings in there, but horns, and if you can ever get the if you ever hear the initial, it's called the jazz version that was released with the initial package in 1979 it's Dan Latt that's on the intro. Putting the intro, piano part to that, and through the whole thing, it's a beautiful piece. And I just got to thank him for being there for me.
Bull: And I heard there was a little bit of experimentation that had been inspired by The Beatles. I think you had a kind of a distinctive “whoosh” sound that came from reversing audio of a symbol or a piano. Do your remember –
Leiderman: Exactly, yes. And this was to fulfill the problem that NPR, the Morning Edition was going to be coming out of classical programming on most, if not all, of these member stations in the morning.
So what I had written, the opening segment of this theme, was really an ersatz classical opening with harpsichord sound and flute, you know, just you would think it's a Bach cantata or something. And we'd had to have a way to get into the modern instrument sound, the real theme, you know, the present-day stuff. And so, yes, I had learned from The Beatles that that they had turned their table in in the machine to get some backward, reverb tail effects that you know. So the reverb preceded the real notes, or whatever.
So we did that, and I hit a cymbal and I think a chord on the piano at the same time, and let it decay, and when you turn the tape back over again, played it in the correct direction, you would hear this ghost. Whooooosshhhh--- BOM! We spliced that to the beginning of the modern section, section B of the theme. It worked beautifully. I guess I was just lucky.
Bull: No, it was really amazing sound and quite innovative. And it was a good way to let the audiences know that we are shifting out of classical programming into something different, something that I think either Bob Edwards or someone described as seeing the sunrise, I think was the evocative imagery that was tied to this music theme. That people who are rising to the day were going to catch the latest headlines we're seeing the sun break over the horizon, and your music was kind of a way of heralding that. Is that what you recall?
Leiderman: Yeah, Jim Russell and then Jay Kernis impressed upon me the idea that this thing shouldn't be like revelry. It shouldn't shake people. It's got to gently move them from, you know, their first cup of coffee or just waking up and the radio, being their alarm clock, and definitely get them into -- I think the way Jay described it to me was, “It's another day. Everything's gonna be all right. You know, no matter what the bad news that was going to come in the next 59 seconds after, right?”
Jay was beautiful. He told me, “Yeah, just instill the idea that things are going to be all right. You're in good hands.” So that's all I ever did as a composer, is, since I didn't read music, and is turn, you know, English language direction, into music. And that was also one of the reasons why, whether I was doing jingles, whatever it was I was doing, the clients were glad that…they came in, scared that they had to talk, you know, musicese with me. And I said, “Hey, wait a minute. I'm going to tell you right now, I don't read music. You don't have to worry. Just tell me what it's supposed to feel like, and I'll get it there.”
Bull: Excellent, please explain to me BJ, what a “bleeble” is.
Leiderman: Yeah, I should have done my research here. You might want to look this up afterwards, because I believe that it's something that Jay Kernis coined, a term. It's simply…there are various times between segments of shows, Morning Edition included that call for an unknown amount of time between the end of a segment and the beginning of another segment. And this may include situations where they throw it back to the member station for their couple minutes’ worth of stuff. And so this, a bleeble is simply a repeating phrase. I mean, maybe I not going to take credit for this, no, but it was sort of like a loop today. We never used the word loop then, but it was a repetitive thing that could be faded in or out without any abrupt sensation. That’s all it was.
So we did a bleeble. It was repeating pattern, or the one that I remember is (mimics music) it would drive people crazy. That's because it went on for two minutes and it was supposed to be talked over by the local station, right? And what we forgot about was some of these stations didn't have anybody in the studio at that hour, so it was two minutes of it was, it would be torture, I think to listen to two minutes of that!
Bull: (laughs) Now your on-air composer credit, seems to have established a precedence in the public radio landscape, if not in all of radio. I hear your name mentioned a lot during a lot of the flagship programs. How did this all happen?
Leiderman: Ah, I was just a lucky, lucky enough to be surrounded by the people at NPR who cared about the show, cared about the music, and, in the long run, cared about me.
And so during the “negotiations,” and I use negotiations in quotes because I didn't hire my own lawyer to do this stuff, we worked with NPR legal department to write a contract. And some point, Jay Kernis said, “Look, look at this bottom line, this number, we're paying him. It's not all that much. So why we give him an on-air credit?”
And at first it was every day. I was at the end of the show when NPR was still running credits for most of their shows. And the funny thing is…so it became written into that contract, and that contract was the boilerplate for all ensuing contracts for all the shows I did after that Weekend Edition, Marketplace, Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me. Even the smaller shows like The People's Pharmacy and A Moment in Time with Dan Roberts. I just used the boilerplate and plugged it in so you, as you well know, a few years ago, NPR just stopped doing credits, and mine stopped too, which was a little disconcerting.
I didn't freak out about it, because, let's face it, I I've had my day in the sun. I really have more than my 15 minutes’ worth, as I often like to say. But I did write a letter to the legal department and say the person who was there all these years ago that wrote, drew up the first contract. She was still there, and she got back to me immediately. She said, “Oh, BJ, look, I'm really sorry about it, the folks here now, none of those people were there then, so that none of them remember what we were supposed to do.”
And they, they reinitiated my on-air credit for Friday. On Friday, so Friday on Morning Edition, and up until when the new version, I will say new arrangement was done, and they still give me credit in the form of, I think they say “Our theme music was inspired by BJ Leiderman.”
It's just a very strong melody, and the company had a hard time not referencing that melody, you know, and I understand, I wouldn't want to be any composer, arranger or music cast that was cast with replacing or freshening up, or doing a new arrangement to any of that stuff, just it's been on the air for so long.
Bull: Absolutely, I know that NPR did replace the Morning Edition theme that you composed in 2019, it's going on six years. They have a new piece that's been used since, composed by a New York City firm. And was it hard to see - or rather, hear - your composition fade away like that?
Leiderman: Well, since, since the melody is still embedded in the new version, and it's, in essence, it hasn't really faded away, but yet, there NPR was good about it. I got a phone call months in advance, getting me ready for the inevitable. And to be fair, was thinking, you know, what in the hell is taking NPR so long, or this show or that show?
I thought they were quite late to the game in paying attention to an audience that was getting older and not, in other words, not coming out with new versions of theme music that spoke to a younger generation.
I'm not all for pandering in that way, but I certainly do think they need to stay current with the sound, and they were way late with that and the some of the themes have just become so I don't know what word to use…
Bull: Dated? Archaic?
Leiderman: Well, it may be, I don't…for instance, weekend edition with Scott Simon, the Saturday Weekend Edition. I think Scott feels that version is very near and dear to him. It's got a certain thrill when the opening string line, in fact, Weekend Edition was the first theme that had strings on any NPR show you.
Yeah, and Jay Kernis was very aware of this, and he would he told me he had sleepless nights, worrying. He was thinking, wow, we don't go to Hollywood with this. Do we? BJ,
he was afraid. This is his quote. He went something like, “Man, I'm afraid that people are going to wake up and take drugs!” (both laugh)
So this is where the name Jim Pugh comes in, because ever since the second every few years, NPR would have me back in the studio to freshen up the package. And the second time I went into the studio to do new versions for Morning Edition package two, they introduced me to an arranger who was also a an A-Llist studio musician in New York named Jim Pugh, P, U, G, H. If you look him up, you will see, and this is the coolest part of Jim, as far as I'm concerned, other than his wonderful ability to, would say, arrange, he actually writes. And the stuff is not just arrangement. He is writing from scratch when I give him a gave him a demo. But he's been the trombonist in Steely Dan for the last 20 or so years.
Bull: I love that band!
Leiderman: So I've been -- yeah, on, you know, recordings, and when he when they play live, when they tour. Ad I've been had the good fortune to see him play with them a number of occasions. And he gets me house seats, it’s wonderful!
Bull: That's wonderful. I saw them play live in Cleveland some years ago, it was an awesome concert.
Leiderman: Aren't they? Aren't they amazing? Walter Becker, rest in peace. But that band, I would always say – this: the stars of that band were the songs. Are the songs you hear one after another one, whether it's a hit or just a great album cut, it's the writing and the arranging. I don't think anybody goes to a Steely Dan concert -- I'm sorry, Donald - to hear Donald Fagan, sing, I don't think -- God did I say that? Anyway….
Any theme by BJ Leiderman that has real orchestra or real instruments on it after the first version of Morning Edition, that's Jim Pugh's arranging. And I wouldn't be here talking to you if Jim Pugh hadn't come into my life. I'm certain of it.
Bull: Well, you have certainly had some great breaks and made a huge impact in the public radio world. And that kind of gets to my next question here. BJ, what do you consider your most important contribution to public radio, overall?
Leiderman: To public radio? I…no one’s ever asked me that before, Brian, you you've come up with a first.
Bull: Are you stumped? Do we need to play the Car Talk “Stump the Chumps” theme?
Leiderman: No, man! I just…all right. You know, this may be the last interview I give that is of record, you know. But the first few decades, you know, after Morning Edition went on the air on November 5, 1979 I sort of identified myself with being that NPR music guy that think I went a little wacky with that, and I think my head got a little too big, especially when, you know, the internet started happening and message boards and email, and I just got all these messages saying that they do use that face music has been the soundtrack of our life. So it's easy to get carried away with that.
I think I just, I think I wrote some good melodies that were memorable, that spoke directly to the listener's soul and heart, didn't have to go through the brain. And I think theme music does have an important place. Over the years, as theme music has gotten short, especially TV theme music disappeared first on TV shows and, you know, series. And you lose something there, if you're old enough to remember the show, like “Hill Street Blues,” the minute the first note started, it instantly transported you into a space that got your emotions, you know, all gooey and ready for the show, for the scene. And the same thing happens with radio themes.
Bull: I agree.
Leiderman: I understand that it's kind of old school now, and I don't have a problem. What's going on today is not for us, meaning people my age. It's for the for youth, for the younger people. And I wish to God that the younger people would wake up and take the whole business by the horns (laughs), including politics, you know. And it's your it's your world, I'm happy to get out of the way musically and every other way. Drive your --this is your plane, man, drive your own plane.
So maybe my contribution to get back to answering your question was delivering an emotion musically that set the listeners up, and gave them a good feeling about what was about to happen. And then the cuts in between stories, and they used to do the end theme, it just left you with a good feeling.
Because, you know, I learned from the best. I learned from John, Paul, George and Ringo. Those are my music teachers, period.
Aside from my piano teacher, Mrs. Nuna, I won't forget you! Don't worry.
Bull: Well. BJ, you have certainly left your mark on the industry, and I know that there are a lot of people, myself included, who just really appreciate your talents and applying your themes to very distinctive programs that have carried us through a lot of times. And I just really am honored and delighted to have this opportunity. As we wind down this interview, BJ, I just want to ask you: do you have any final thoughts or comments either about your career or the state of the public radio industry today? We've seen a lot of upheavals in Washington and rippling through the public radio industry and public media in general. And I'm sure that you've, you know, had your share of projects and endeavors as well, but yeah, I'm just leaving an open mic to you right now in our last few minutes here, if there's anything else you'd like to share.
Leiderman: Uh, yes, and it's very it's very good you asked that question, because right now I'm seeing, seeing a lot, and also live in Asheville, North Carolina, Nashville area, and so I'm very close with Blue Ridge Public Radio, BPR, and ever since I moved here, they have been they've opened their arms to me to help them, you know, in different ways. And right now, it's funny, this morning, I saw a post. It turns out maybe to be true, that because of the cuts to public broadcasting, excuse me… (Bull: Take your time.) …because of the cuts to public broadcasting, including the rescinding of funds that had already been promised to member stations that they've already figured into their budgets. One state, believe I'm going to say it. It was Indiana Public Broadcasting. I don't know if it's true, but I did cross check. It shows up on different news sources. It seems that they have made the decision to fire all of their news staff statewide.
Bull: That's what I've heard.
Leiderman: Yes, and of all the things that public radio does, and they do a lot of things well, you know, it's not just news, but I think the most important thing public radio does is news, because they learn their chops. They take a cue from NPR and American Public Media. And you know of what news should be how, how to do news with quality capital in-depth. You know, I'm not going to say “fair and balanced,” because another news organization has ruined those two words.
But so now we're in a situation of… I'm now talking with the chairman of the board of BPR, and there's a new incoming general manager, and I'm going to get Skippy to help them raise funds, operating funds, by doing concerts around the area. And that's what I've been doing all across the country for different public radio members, all they have to do is call me and I'll come out and do a concert.
But it is not good to cut news because that's where the community is held. That's the glue that holds the community together. The local coverage, not just news, but anything the member station does for their local listeners, and that's a broad spectrum of things, not just the weather. You know, it's a lot of stuff that goes into that. And so BPR -to my glee- has doubled down, and they're not going to cut that part of the budget that was slated for news. They've started from nothing and have actually created a local news organization. And they're doubling down and building that stronger, and I think it's going to serve them well, and it's a model the other stations should take a cue from, BPR.
And the funny thing is that the percentage, the amount of money that goes to the Corporation for Public Broadcasting from our taxes that that the CPB then doles out to the various public radio entities, is so infinitesimal. This is such a political stupid potato, I won’t say hot potato. It's idiotic.
Those pennies that come out of everybody's pockets that go to the CPB eventually end up doing your local area some good by providing - not just news and information - but they have to pay those fees for the shows.
So if you want to hear Terry Gross, if you want to hear Morning Edition, if you want to hear Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me, well, the station, your local station, has to pay pretty decent sums every year for license fees to air that stuff, and so you're getting more than your bang for the buck.
Question of what I'm proudest of for public radio, you could broaden that out, what am I proudest of in my life that I've accomplished? And my answer is, I haven't done it yet.
I'm about to do it, and if I do it correctly, and it reaches enough ears and eyeballs,
it's going to be a shocker. That's not what you would expect, but it's –
Bull: Any ---
Leiderman: No, I'm not going to give you a hint. I'm just going to say it's a movement of sorts that, to me, is extremely empathy-driven to try to minimize, if not eradicate, pain and suffering. If not for everybody on the planet, then just for one person or one person at a time. It's highly controversial, and I don't know. I feel like Moses, why am I picked? Why am I choosing to do it? So I don't know. If I don't - maybe I can do some good. I don't know. Watch this space. Watch BJLeiderman.com because that's where it'll happen first, I think.
Bull: Alright. And this concludes my interview with composer BJ Lederman, July 10th, 2025. BJ thank you so much for being part of the Public Radio Oral History Project has been an absolute talking to you,
Leiderman: Brian. It's been an honor, thank you for inviting me. Peace.
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The Public Radio Oral History Project was started by Ken Mills in 2022, as a way to preserve the accounts of the American public radio system's earliest pioneers, innovators, and personalities. It's currently headed by longtime radio journalist Brian Bull, a former NPR editorial/production assistant for Morning Edition, and participant in the NPR Diversity Initiative.
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