Note: The following transcript is created by both humans and AI, so despite our best attempts may contain errors. And the audio at times has a slight echo, due to some synchronization issues.
Bull: Today is Monday, August, 19, 2024, 9:30am, Pacific Standard Time. This is Brian Bull, lead interviewer and director of the Public Radio Oral History Project. Today our guest is Jay Kernis, who is among the earliest innovators at National Public Radio, serving as the founding producer for Morning Edition and Weekend Edition. He also served as senior vice president for programming, before working at several other shops, including CBS Sunday Morning. Mr. Kernis has also received numerous accolades, including several Emmys, the DuPont Columbia Award and the Peabody Award. Jay, thank you so much for joining us.
Kernis: Thanks for having me.
Bull: So Jay, let's get some easy stuff out of the way. First, just need some biographical details from you. When were you born, and what's your hometown?
Kernis: I was born on June 14, 1952- don't do the math, in Manhattan, taken home to Brooklyn, and after a year or so, my parents moved to Northern New Jersey to Bergenfield New Jersey, and so I consider Bergenfield my hometown.
Bull: All right. We are nearing now, the 45th anniversary of the launch of NPR's Flagship program, Morning Edition, and I recall a photograph of you that I know that Ken Mills had on his sparks page for a while. It showed you Bob Edwards and Carl Castle gathered around a reel to reel machine. And it's such a dynamic photo because, you know, it's the beginning of something huge. And I was just curious if it occurred to anyone what a big deal this was going to become. Who was Jay Kernis, by the way, back in 1979?
Kernis: Well, let me go back a moment, just so there's some context. When I was in high school, when I just turned 17, I think, yeah, I just turned 17, I started at a public radio station licensed to the Riverside Church, WRVR. It was a classical and jazz station. They were starting a small news group, and I was the first intern. This is in 1969- so I I got, I got to get coffee for the afternoon news host Robert Siegel. I wrote news for Adam Powell III. I knew nothing about radio or public radio, but I was there five summers and vacation.
And I attended the University of Maryland, and when I graduated in 1974 a number of people from WRVR and from my college radio station, WMUC, had gone to this new place, NPR.
So I started at NPR 1974 when it was three years old. And so I was raised by the Founding Mothers, Susan Stamberg, Linda Wertheimer, Cokie Roberts, Nina Totenberg. And I started as the first full time on air promotions coordinator, which means I did promos every day with Susan Stamberg and Bob Edwards and everybody else. I did as many promos for the daily and weekly shows, plus the specials, as many promos as I could. And it was a great education, because I had to listen to every show and figure out what was worth promoting. But I also got to work with everybody at NPR, and I did that for two years, then worked on the weekly arts magazine, Voices in the Wind hosted by folk singer Oscar Brand. It was produced by Robert Montiegel and then Bob Malesky and I worked my way up to the producer of the show.
At that point, we're in the summer of 1979 and the news director, was Jim Russell. Jim Russell and I had a wonderful relationship, and he put me on a committee to help, to help create Morning Edition. And in the summer of 1979 I sat in a room with a bunch of people and spoke with stations and people who did audience research, including Dr. Lawrence Lichty and I had a great interest in radio programming and formats. And so with this ruler, which is a pica ruler, which is a print tool, I drew various clocks. And I would listen to the discussion during the, you know, each day and the next day draw a format clock.
And the people in the room would often say, Well, that's not what we discussed. And I would say, yes, it is what you discussed. Because if you- if we're going to co-produce this show with member stations, then if there's a point at which you want them to join, you need a point at which they could leave. And so I sort of held the clock each day trying to represent what had been discussed now at that
Bull: So you’re talking about the local cutaways that that–
Kernis: Exactly it was also the structure that would become Morning Edition like it wasn't. Now I should go back and explain that All Things Considered was, at that point, fed on high class phone lines. But in 1979 the national satellite system was created, and that system meant we could co produce Morning Edition, whatever it was going to be called at that point, with stations. But that meant having a way to get in and out of the program, and we discussed having tones and phrases, but we ended up having phrases plus short pauses, you know, less than a second, but it meant I highly disciplined staff.
So that summer, Frank Mankiewicz was president, Barbara Cochran -- she was Barbara Cohen at the time -- hired two producers from the number one commercial station in Washington, DC, that was WMAL, an AM station that had half the audience at the time, and Pete Williams from our station in Casper, Wyoming. He had a great career later on at NBC. Let's see Pete, and Mary Tillotson.
And I was, I was the highest level producer at NPR who was put on the actual staff at that point, I was senior producer in charge of arts and entertainment coverage. In order to put on Morning Edition, we had to fold certain shows. The resources of Voices in the Wind and Arts Modules would go into Morning Edition. I think we stopped doing Options and Options and Education. Options was a weekly, maybe a daily public affairs interview show. Options in Education, hosted by John Marrow and produced by John was a weekly education magazine. Some of the modular services that we did at the time, specific subjects got folded into the Morning Edition resources.
So rabbit hole story: that summer, Jim Russell was going to leave to go to Minnesota Public Radio, and he gave me a cassette and said, “Here's a piece of theme music written by a guy named B.J. Leiderman when you're in the meetings. And someone says, what about theme music? Raise your hand.” And I did. And I played them B.J.’s sketch for the Morning Edition theme, which was that point probably 90 seconds. And someone said, “Oh, go and produce it.” So I sat at B.J.’s piano and said, “We're probably going to need, I don't know, 30 or 40 pieces of music beyond the main theme. We probably needed a bad day version, because you had a happy version. We were going to read letters on the air. So he wrote a piece of music, and also played a typewriter, probably needed a sports theme, etc.”
And along with audio engineers Skip Pizzi, we produced that music.
And I only raise it now because one, it's, you know, it's what introduced him to the public radio system. And two, as we were doing pilots, the stations would sign up for the show. And I were, and I sent them a tape of, you know, 40 cuts of the theme music. And I know there were people at NPR who said, why are you sending this music to the stations? I mean, it was raw pieces of music. And I, I said, “If we're going to co-produce this with our member stations, they need to have the same music that we are using.”
So the world's a lot of preparation that summer, and we did pilots. And I can't say the producers that were hired had much respect for public radio and what it was about. They had come from a commercial radio station, and a bunch of us who were there at NPR would raise story ideas, and they go, “No, we're not doing that.” I said, “Well, but this is what led to these kinds of stories. Led to both the success of All Things Considered and other programs.” And they said, “Now we're not going to do that.” Arguments ensued. We fed that summer pilots to the stations, and the stations said, “No, we're not going to carry the show.”
So at some point in October, actually, the president, Frank Mankiewicz, asked me, “Do you think that these people could get the show on the air? I mean, the stations really didn't like the pilots.” And I mean, I was in my late 20s, and I felt put in a very difficult position. At the same time, I said to Frank, “No, they don't really know what we're doing here in public radio, they will not be able to get the show on the air.” There was a meeting at Barbara Cochran’s house, our news vice president, and I don't know, we had 10 or 15 days before we were supposed to launch.
Now I should know the launch of Morning Edition. It's either November 4th or 5th, but the problem is that Weekend Edition, Saturday also launched on November 4th or 5th. But whatever it was, it was the night the hostages were taken in Tehran, and then the first day, our newscasters, I think, were Carl Kassell and Jackie Judd, had it in the newscast. But at that point we really didn't know what it meant. But after that, it was the coverage of the first year.
So anyway, we're at that- we're at Barbara’s house, and you know, they're figuring out a way to get the show on the air and make it like, like a public radio show, like an NPR show. And at some point, Mankowitz or Barbara turned to me and said, “Well, you created the format clock and you understand public radio, you're going to get the show on the air, and we're going to pair you with people who knew a lot more about news then I did.” I was, I knew about news, but I was doing a producing a weekly arts magazine.
Bull: And for what it’s worth, Morning Edition launched on November 5, 1970.
Kernis: There we go. That's what I thought. Thank you. So, so they put me with Bill Drummond, an expert editor, and Frank Fitzmaurice was executive producer. I was actually the senior producer and showrunner, and the way I tell the story, we had 10 days to do new pilots and get it on the air. At that point, at that at that meeting, someone said, “Well, let's borrow Bob Edwards from All Things Considered, and he'll help us get the show on the air for the first couple of months.” Eventually, they paired her with a journalist named Barbara Hochter, who only did the show for, I think, a couple of months may- in that first year, but…
Bull: I - I'm laughing at the word, “borrow” Bob Edwards…
Kernis: Well, that was the term we used. We “borrow.” Remember, at that point, the rest of the news division was very suspicious about this new morning show that we would take staff and resources away from All Things Considered. And Susan and Cokie and others were not happy about that. They basically pulled the wagons in a circle and said, “You know what, we're really not going to help them much in the first year.”
And as the show got more and more successful, and more stations signed up, those same people helped us get on the air. But there were days when I walked over to All Things Considered. You know, I certainly knew I had friends over there. I think executive probably was Steve Reiner, senior producer Richard Harris, and I'd walk over and say, "I can't fill the show," and you know, it was a two-hour show and we were, I'd only leave if we were in 10 minutes of the show being filled because overnight Bob could do an interview or two or three with overnight news, usually from overseas, to make sure the show was together.
But there were times where they would go through the pile of tapes and go, “Oh, we didn't use this piece. We didn't use this piece, but you'd have to recut it.”
In the first year, I'd walk over to Nina and say, “Well, look, you've done an important story.” And she would say, “Here's my acts, my tracks, here's my outtakes. Make a piece.” She would leave, and I would sit there, or someone else would sit there from the Morning Edition staff and make a piece.
As I say, eventually, they, they realized the show was going to succeed and they needed to be on it. So they were the first people on it. And, of course, we, we relied on material from member stations. But as you can imagine, that first year was quite tough, 1979 and into 1980 because the pilots had not been good, and people at NPR held back.
Now if you ask, “Well, why didn't the bosses just say to these people, ‘Well, we need you to be on the show.’?” We're talking about Nina, Cokie, Linda and others, Founding Mothers, and you really just didn't tell them what to do.
So the first year was, was quite a challenge, and I would in that first year, almost every day I scheduled, others scheduled an interview for Bob, which I cut, or others cut, but I- my memory is that I almost cut an interview a day, and on some days, Bob taped the interview for the next day, early enough that I could cut it and script it, and before he left, he would or they would track it overnight. But I thought it was important that Bob had something special for him to do every day. And I learned quickly enough, and I sort of knew it from All Things Considered, that he, he really loved talking about American history. He loved talking about- with American writers. So we, we booked a piece that would feature his personality and feature things that that he loved. That is a very long answer to your question, but that's the, that's the rush of stuff that comes to me at when you when you ask it,
Bull: Sounds like you had a lot of the proverbial brands in the fire. You had a lot of interesting personalities and different types of, I guess maybe ambitions or agendas happening as this program is trying to get its legs and for all of the, I guess for all the pushback and conflicts and meetings and reiterations of how the show should flow, you know, something did gel eventually, and now we have a flagship program that is well recognized across the globe as a, you know, an important news magazine program that's going on almost half a century. So, yeah, congratulations.
Kernis: It's quite something all these years later to, you know, to turn on the radio every day and hear, hear one of your children speak so beautifully and in such an essential way. And I'm still close with Steve Inskeep. And we sometimes, when he comes to New York, we- he cut we have a coffee. He chats about the show. But I also, every now and then, send him an email, usually something I like that he's- that he's done. But if I have a moment where I think, you know, I shouldn't send an email, but this is important, but he just wrote to me last week, saying, look, anytime you think something's important that we should know about the show like you’re entitled, to send me an email. And I do.
And of course, Scott Simon and I are very close. After five years, Robert Siegel paired the two of us. Scott was our chief correspondent in the Chicago Bureau. I only knew him to sit, you know, he would say, "I have a piece for Morning Edition." And I would say, "Well, I've got five minutes." And he would go, "I need six." And I'd go, "Five and a half." "Done." You know, we had a wonderful relationship, but we had never worked together.
And Robert Siegel, who was news director at the time, said, “I can raise the money for a weekend show, you and Scott sit down and design it,” which is what we did, I think, in the summer of 1985. At that point, there wasn't a lot of there weren't a lot of fundraising messages, money- the startup money came from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, but there wasn't enough money for both Saturday and Sunday.
So we, we, we first put on Weekend Edition Saturday. It's- that's not the title, but people call it that we put on Weekend Edition on Saturdays in 1985 and I left Morning Edition and produced Scott for two years.
Bull: I was also reminded when you were talking a while back there, Jay, that there were a number of consultants early on who tried to make Morning Edition a very commercial sounding program. How do the unique public radio sound prevail?
Kernis:Uhm….I think, fear. I mean, you can't imagine what it's like. Well, maybe you can, but to create pilots to be told…at that point, All Things Considered was the flagship program, because NPR didn't have enough money to create Morning Edition, which meant having a staff 24 hours a day, having a staff overnight. But we knew that there was a huge audience in in morning drive. Just until 1979 didn't have a way to do it, but we were aware that there was a lot at stake.
Now, some context to most stations, I mean, the major markets had had news departments, but a lot of our stations, a lot of member stations, were running classical music in the morning. They may have had a news reader, but most stations didn't have the capability to create a local newscast, or do do local, regional or state reporting? I mean, of course, Minnesota did, Los Angeles did. Many of the stations didn't. I feel that that really is an outgrowth of Morning Edition, when, when stations realized, oh, we could, we could gather a huge audience here, and local and regional and state news was, was very, very important.
All of that is, I'm saying this and long- in the longest way possible, but we were constantly told there was a lot at stake, and we visited a lot of stations, so we knew there was a lot at stake. And so we didn't want to fail. And so in that time, when the pilots failed and we created new pilots, we had a number of discussions about what was- why public radio succeeded. And I think it was very important, we went back to Bill Siemering’s original statement, his founding statement on what public radio should do and what public radio should sound like. And the fact is back in whenever he wrote it, 1970 or 1971
Bull: Guiding principles for public radio-
Kernis: Yeah, being a visionary, being a visionary. He really laid it out. He really described what public radio should sound like. And a number of us were very aware of him, and a very, very aware of that, that document, and we also figured out why public radio or we thought we had figured out why public radio succeeded and so it was a very, you know, it was, it was, you know, it was self-protection. It was like, okay, the stations rejected what we had done. What were they willing to air?
And it had, it had to do not only with Bill's statement, but years later, the Public Radio Program Directors (Association) did all of that research on the core values. I'm not sure that he had done that research at that time, but we somehow touched enough of that research to know why people would listen to something and think, oh, that's for me.
So part of it was fear, part of it was creativity, and part of it was honoring what made public radio great.
Bull: It is a very distinct sound, apart from a lot of commercial stations, especially back in that era too. And to this day, there's a very distinct tempo and kind of a tone that public radio announcers and reporters use compared to their commercial counterparts. Not necessarily saying–
Kernis: You use the word “announce.” And Bill Siemering described that in his initial statement that we would not announce, that we would speak, to speak with our listeners.
Bull: A very good distinction. And back in 1979 it was an operation that most people wouldn't recognize today. We had razor blades, reel tape, grease pencils, not a smartphone or even a cell phone on site, and most field reporters were working with cassettes and alligator clips, and regular internet access was 20 some years away.
Kernis: When you describe it that way, it sounds like- it sounds like ancient history. That way. It sounds like ancient history, but the fact is, at the time, we were using the latest technology. Now I can't say that a razor blade cutting quarter inch tape was the latest that was the latest technology, but, but a satellite system certainly was, and the fact is, NPR spent- and stations spent lots of hard-earned dollars on having wonderful microphones, having great audio technicians making sure that -- for instance, when you made a dub of a tape, there was a denigration of sound. So if you dubbed a tape too much, sometimes the sound could get a little foggy. So, so what techniques could you develop so you were using either the first generation of tape, or the closest to first generation as possible. We had many techniques and protocols to make sure that the sound was what could be.
I mean if you look at any photograph of an NPR studio at the time, I think to this day, there's Neumann microphones. Well, those microphones are the most expensive microphones you could buy, and that sound became a trademark of NPR, as did going out in the field and collecting sound, collecting the sound of people at events, at work, backstage, behind the scenes.
Bull: Very true.
Kernis: That was by design, that was truly the sound of NPR was a very thoughtful process.
Bull: What do you consider Jay to be the most- your most important contribution to the success of Morning Edition and Weekend Edition?
Kernis: Well, thank you for asking. In terms of Morning Edition, it was allowing Bob Edwards to be Bob Edwards. It was figuring out what he did best and making sure there was a lot of that on Morning Edition. This- the second thing I think I brought to Morning Edition was, was discipline, which is to say the clock still has, but at that point, had many join and exit points. Which meant on the air, the people putting the segments together-I was one of them- but other producers and our directors, who were phenomenal, and our engineers, had to hit the entrance and exit points exactly.
Now, we had always done that on All Things Considered and other shows. But, you know, I always spread the message, we cannot be a half second off. We have to be- we have to hit those points exactly, and we have to hit it in such a way that it's natural. That the people on the air don't feel rushed, that the music comes up in a certain way and descends in a certain way.
And so I think I was one of the people who --as we trained staff members-- made it clear that it not only had to be great journalism, that it had to be a wonderful listening experience, but the clock had to be exacting, as it was every day, so stations could co-produce the show.
I mean, I also think I brought- and NPR has always been challenged in terms of comedy, but even Bill Siemering in his initial statement, said that humor is a path to understanding. So I helped to make sure that the show was not always this ponderous, serious news show every morning, that- that there were going to be stories and interviews to also delight the audience.
In terms of Weekend Edition, this was really me making sure that that Scott could be Scott, that Scott was one of NPR still is greatest interviewers, but also in the field, a great reporter, and in those first two years, he almost every week, went out with one of our producers and produced a like a 15-minute documentary that ended one of the, one of the hours.
But it's funny, when we were just when we were selling Weekend Edition to the stations and Scott and I went around the country, usually with Robert Siegel. We described it as reflecting the American weekend, but, but Scott and I were probably the last two people in- that got NPR to do that because for the- we didn't really do what people did on weekends. Mostly we worked. Mostly we did pieces and stories. But it was something to stay it- was something to say to stations.
Ultimately, I knew that this program was going to reflect Scott's interest in the news, in certain news stories, and reflect what he could do best in- the in the field. Fact is that after a couple of weeks, stations realized that, and at that point, it was the most successful NPR show in terms of gaining stations faster than any other NPR show. It was a- it was a hit show within the first year. And that's because people realized that Scott was very special.
I think after the first year, Robert Siegel, he himself went back to the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, and Scott was so successful that there was money for a Sunday show. But Scott felt that he was putting all his energy into Saturday and didn't want to dilute it. And I was one of the people who convinced Susan Stamberg, who was just sort of floating around NPR, doing stories for different shows, I convinced her to do Weekend Edition on Sunday, and worked with her to create a sound that would complement what we were doing on Saturday, but, but make it her own.
And of course, NPR at that time, never would talk about our anchors and correspondents as being stars, but I was quite aware that listeners are loyal to people they love. And Susan certainly had that star power and launched that show, and it was an immediate success because of her and that production staff. It had a separate- a separate production staff. I helped launch the show, but I stayed producing, I stayed producing Scott until 1987 when I left to go to CBS.
Bull: Now, when I hear you describing the successful ventures with programs Bob Edwards and then Scott Simon and Susan Stamberg, it sounds like what you did was simply allow the host to be themselves, not simply be talking heads reciting copy that someone else had written. That sounds like they invested a lot of their own interests and personalities into these programs, and that you allow that to develop in a very natural, organic way. Do you consider that to be- I don't know if the term “host driven” is necessarily correct here, but it sounds like it's very much a way of just letting people be themselves, which creates that very natural, intriguing sound that NPR is famous for.
Kernis: Yes, but I would, I would say it's not natural. I would say it requires a lot of planning, a lot of discipline and a lot of work on either a daily show or a weekly show. It involves producers to understand why listeners value the broadcast, why they would return to the broadcast and making sure that the hosts had that material to work with, had those interviews to work with, and had people supporting them.
I mean, the fact is, unlike much of television, our NPR hosts did a lot of their own writing. In fact, sat at those tape machines and edited their own tape but it meant that a group of producers needed to constantly be- constantly be looking for material and booking guests and creating the structure of pieces so that the host could do it day after day, day after day. So I think most hosts would say that, yes, the system at NPR allowed us to really express our own interests and curiosities, but we were backed up by pretty remarkable production teams. Not to take anything away from them, but the producers and editors and audio engineers deserve a lot of credit for what they did.
Bull: Yes. I was actually when I got started with NPR, I was an overnight production /editorial assistant with Morning Edition back in the late 90s when Bob Edwards was still at the helm, and it was a real trial by fire. I think they went through production assistance and editorial systems like popcorn, sometimes just because of the shift and the demand and the stress and all the pieces that had to fall into place at the right moment to make that program- that clock work. So no, hats off to everyone who is on that team, any production team that puts a production like that together. It's stressful.
Kernis: And yet very rewarding, you know.
Bull: Yes, yes. I think at 9:06 (am), we all broke for celebratory coffees that usually I or someone else will make a run down to the Starbucks there on M Street or Massachusetts Avenue, the nearest one. Coffee runs were very much a big occasion there. Was there ever a project or initiative in public radio that you thought was a great idea, but you just couldn't make it happen for one reason or another?
Kernis: Mmm, yeah. On Sundays, Will Shortz had The Puzzle, which is still there and it's very popular. And the New Yorker came to us- this is when I was senior vice president for programming, and the comic the great, the great cartoons in the New Yorker were edited by a great cartoonist named Bob Mankoff, and he's the- he's the cartoonist who did the classic- a guy is standing in his office looking at his calendar, and he says, “Never. Is never good?” He came to us and said, could we create some kind of New Yorker-NPR caption contest, and we piloted it, believe it or not, and used the website at the same time, but I just couldn't convince Weekend Edition Saturday to put it on the air. And it became the back page of the New Yorker, where there's a caption contest. That's not a big deal. You know, you try a lot, that's, that's not a big deal. But I thought there was something there, and wished it could happen.
Bull: No, that would have been interesting to see. Yeah, I know that NPR has tried a number of things, and some were really popular, and some well, you know, they were, they had their detractors. I was thinking of Moe Moskowitz skits. I remember there was some radio drama -
Kernis: By the way, for all the criticism that Moskowitz took, now, you're talking to me on a Monday- last Friday, it so happens I had breakfast with Robert Kaplow, the creator of (chuckles) Moe Moskowitz and the Punsters (Bull laughs). And he's – I hadn't seen him in 30 or 40 years. He said that the song that Steve Profit produced with him- “Steven Spielberg, Give Me Some of Your Money” is still known to this day.
And I think, I mean, I get it. There are a lot of people that felt that it was difficult to put humor and comedy inside a respectful, respectable news show. At the same time, he's, to this day, is still remembered for it.
I would say that that's one of the things that makes public radio great. The willingness to experiment and the willingness to fail. If you don't try something, you're doing the same news that everybody else is doing. That's not really true because of NPR core values, but if NPR and public radio is not willing to take chances, then what's the point?
Bull: I found it entertaining, and I still have my cassette copy somewhere in my library--
Kernis: But look, there were things that did not work, and you move on, you know?
Bull: No, I mean, that's just part of the whole innovative process. I think, again, as he said, that made NPR such a hallmark. One issue that's more recent in the past few years, Jay is that there's been a number of turnovers of employees and public radio that's been of some concern. Some of our best talent no longer work in non-commercial media. Is there anything that you think that the industry can do or offer to keep people?
Kernis: Yeah, I mean, look, it's difficult. I mean, it's easy for me to talk about what life was like when I was a senior producer and executive producer or a senior vice president for programming. It's more difficult for me to talk about and I- - when did I leave? I think I left in 2007 or 2008 so it's a long time now.
I'm, you know, I'm an old parent or grandparent of this enterprise now, and it's probably not even fair for me to think about Public Radio. I mean, I notice when I talk about it, I still say “our” as if I'm still part of it. And you know, to a degree, I still, I still feel part of it, but I shouldn't be in a position where I'm, I'm criticizing it, etc, etc.
Having said that, I think when executives realize that somebody is talented, really talented, and listeners love these people --I mean, people tune in day after day, week after week, because of the news coverage, because of the context that's provided, because it speaks to them-- but I think they're tuning in because of the curiosity and personalities of the people on the air. And when executives realize that they have these people, they should do whatever they can to keep these people.
When I was senior vice president for programming a number, I watched over the news division. I watched over online, my direct reports were (for) the vice president for news, the vice president for digital, etc, etc, But because I had a history there, people came to me and said, “What are you doing to develop the next group of talented hosts here?” And I said, “Well, you know what? I worked with the news division.” And I said, “Let's do an in-house audition.”
And we actually held in-house auditions where people, I think they wrote, I think they did a live interview. I think we listened to their best work. We then divided people into three groups ready to be the “next people on the air,” “needs some help,” or “not ready.”
And in that top group was, for instance, Ari Shapiro, but there were a number of other people in that in, that group who became- eventually, either on their own or through mentorships, NPR hosts. Well, when you look at what they offered, I mean --they were great, all great reporters. They were wonderful interviewers. But they also had that “it”. They had that something special. And I think it's incumbent upon executives at NPR, and I think they do this. I mean, there are lots of new, wonderful people on the air- that they need to identify those people, mentor those people if necessary, and make sure those people want to stay.
And I know there are money problems, there are money problems everywhere in commercial and non-commercial industry, but those people need to be developed and supported so that they can do their best work.
Bull: At what moments, Jay, were you proudest to be working in public radio?
Kernis: Oh, proudest? The launch of Morning Edition and Weekend Edition. You know, I realize years later that that was quite an accomplishment, that I was one of the people who needed to keep that promise to member stations that we would deliver something that you would put on your air, because I always realize that to put on Morning Edition or Weekend Edition, they were taking something off their air. So I'm proud of that.
I'm proud of working with David Isay, the creator of Sound Portraits. He was one of Public Radio's great documentary producers. He came to me and said, “I have an idea for an oral history project.” I remember saying, “Does that mean you're no longer going to do documentaries?” And he said, “Yes, but listen to this idea.” And I said “Yes,” and other executives at NPR said yes, and made it work. And Ellen McDonell executive producer of Weekend Edition, found a home for it. And obviously, it's a big deal.
I think I'm also proud of what happened on September 11, 2001. I was, I just arrived at NPR. Bob Edwards was down in front on Massachusetts Avenue having a cigarette. He said, a plane hit the World Trade Center. I went up to the newsroom, watched the first tower fall, called my wife in New York and said, “Get out of the city.” And then I turned to the- Ellen McDonnell and the staff of Morning Edition, and said “How long could you stay on the air?” I turned to Bruce Drake, who was- he was vice president at the time, and I said, “We're about to go into 24 hours of coverage for as long as it takes.” And that's the first time that NPR did 24 hours of continuous news coverage. I also said, “Let's find member stations who can help us do this.” And we stayed on the air for, I think, a week, doing 24 hours of news coverage.
I had just come from CBS at the time, so I had some experience in this. And I said, “You need to send a third of the staff home.” And people said, “Why?” I said, “Well, everyone's going to want to be here and watch what happens, but to do 24 hours, you have to force people to go to sleep so that they can come back and actually do all this live programming.”
Kernis:So I'm happy I made, I'm happy I made that decision, and I'm one of the people that- still sound like ancient history, but in most places in the country, there was a radio newsroom and a digital newsroom, mostly because the radio people didn't feel that the digital people had what it took to be “real NPR” and I worked with Vice President Maria Thomas and others to converge the newsrooms at NPR so, so basically digital and radio news gathering became one operation. You might not think that was a big deal, but at the time, it was a very big deal because it was almost like two different cultures and two different two different operations.
I mean, there are other things that I did. You know I I discovered Ira Glass in the hallway 1970s uh, listened to a tape and brought him downstairs to All Things Considered. And I said, one of us, so he gives me credit for doing that. He was just, he was just really wandering the hallways on M Street. We had my name on it. He had my name on a piece of paper. And I finally said, who are you and what are you doing here? And he said I want to work at NPR. I said, oh, let me listen to your tape. So, I mean, it just happened. I'm proud of it now, but it's just something that seemed very natural at the time.
Bull: He's gone on to do a few things, I think.
Kernis:Yes, he has, he's, he's changed the sound of public radio and opened the door to- to lots of very creative people.
Bull: Yes, what do you do with yourself these days now, Jay? Now that I know your birthday, I know that --
Kernis: I'm a producer at CBS Sunday Morning. I'm very fortunate to be there. I'm not an executive, I'm not a senior producer. I'm one of 20 producers, and I work on around 15 stories a year. And I said I'm very fortunate to be there one, because it's such a creative place to work, and two, because, to my mind, it's the closest thing to public radio that's on- on television, in terms of story selection and how we do stories. Of course, 60 minutes is close to that too.
And I was there (at 60 Minutes) for five years, but I'm I'm 72 years old, and I, right now I'm working on probably seven pieces, one one that's going to air in a couple of weeks, and at the rest that'll air during the Fall, and talking to me at a time when Paramount is figuring out how to cut its budget by 500 million. Is that true? 500 million? I think so. Yeah. Unfortunately, a number of thousands of people have been fired and will be let go, and I'm hoping they value (CBS) Sunday Morning, 60 minutes and 48 Hours, and I get to continue this work until I can no longer do it.
I'm also a paramount mentor, which means that each week, I have a number of professional, professional broadcasters who I either help train in storytelling or I have moments with them, when they need someone to look at a script, or need someone just to talk with about their work or careers. And I always was doing that at NPR, and I find myself enjoying that almost as much as I do creating pieces and putting them on television.
Bull: You're a storyteller.
Kernis: On a good day, yes. On a bad day, I'm just an annoyance.
Bull: So Jay, are there any final thoughts or comments either about your career or the state of the public radio industry today you'd like to share before we wrap up?
Kernis: Well, I'm as concerned as anybody else is about the future of radio and the future of public radio. I mean, so many people after COVID ---people are working from home. Our radios may no longer have AM or FM in them. You know, I follow this from a distance. I'm hoping that millions of listeners still value whatever public radio becomes, whether it's something that's on radios or different devices, and that, this remarkable exercise, sorry, that this remarkable enterprise can- can continue and succeed.
Bull: Indeed, no, it's been quiet.
Kernis: Is there anything else you want to know from me?
Bull: Well, I was intrigued --and I don't know if this is getting too deep into the reeds here-- but I do remember that Bob Edwards was not the original host for Morning Edition, and do you recall who did the early programs and what led to Edwards taking over the host chair?
Kernis: Oh no, it was Mary Tillotson and Pete Williams, they did the pilots. They were on the pilots. So when, when the pilots didn't succeed, the president of NPR, Frank Mankowitz -- you know in some ways, we probably just should have kept them as reporters, but didn't -- because the station reaction was so negative that they were let go.
So immediately, once they were let go, remember the show wasn't on the air. It was just in pilots. And so leading up to November 5, 1979, Bob was doing the pilots. And we did. We did at least three or four pilots. So at that point, he stopped doing All Things Considered, and was working to pilot the new show. But that's what happened. I mean, they- the station. Reaction was just very negative. I mean, rightly so.
Bull: Just wasn't the sound they wanted.
Kernis: No absolutely. So it was a pretty scary time, but that's how Bob got on the show. And-
Bull: I remember talking to someone at ATC who said they were very aggrieved to- they felt that Bob had been basically swiped from their- their program, and they had to scramble to find a new host and kind of reconfigure the program too at the last minute. So --
Kernis: I'm sure they felt that way. But I also thought Bob was interested in trying something new, you know, at the time. I mean, he certainly threw himself into it.
Bull: No, I remember back when I was there in the 90s, it was kind of --to me at least-- it was kind of the golden era. We had Bob Edwards of the helm. He did a very masterful job of typing out his opens and returns on carbon paper, even though you're now in that more electronic age and- and, of course, if you needed to find Bob, you just looked for the glowing ember down the parking garage and the shadows there. And he knew where Bob was, and Carl Kassell was the newscaster.
Kernis: I mean, it was in the beginning, it was Carl and Jackie Judd. They were great.
Bull: Do you have- do you have any thoughts when you compare the NPR from 1979 to the NPR today? There's, there's obviously been a few changes in sound and dynamics, maybe engineering, maybe how they structure the clocks up. Did you do you feel like it's been a good evolution? Or do you have things that you wish you could go back to 1979?
Kernis: I mean, I'm- I'm still very proud of everything that that public radio does, and that NPR does, its world reach is amazing. Ability to put the news in context is still essential. Every now and then I wish they would take a few more chances.
But I, as I said, I'm probably, I'm not in no position to- to criticize. It's like, you know, for me, it's like criticizing- I have two sons, 29 and 32 now, you know, as a parent, you choose the moments when you think criticism might be helpful. And I think to my kids, that's- that's between hardly ever and never. So you know, if I can actually consider myself one of NPR’s parents, you know, I'm not a founding parent, certainly, I really have no business criticizing.
I listen every day, and I still count on it, and I still love it, you know, maybe now and then, I wish it would take more chances in terms of people and interviews and ideas. But that's in no way a complaint. I think it's doing so well. And when I go around the country doing my stories, I listen to the local public radio station, and I think, “God bless them for figuring out how to stay on the air."
Bull: And this concludes my interview with Jay Kernis, August 19th, 2024. Jay, thank you so much for making the time to talk to me about your history and contributions to NPR. I think Ken Mills would have been delighted to know that you were finally able to join us and be part of this.
Kernis: Thanks for all the time. Take care.
