AILSA CHANG, HOST:
From NPR News, this is ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. I'm Ailsa Chang in Culver City, California.
MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
And I'm Mary Louise Kelly in Munich on a rainy, soggy, gray afternoon. This city is known, among other things, for the Munich Agreement, 1938. So cast your mind back, what was happening in 1938. British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain shows up here. He cuts a deal, along with his French and Italian counterparts, a deal that allows Nazi Germany to take Sudetenland from Czechoslovakia, and in exchange, they promise peace. So basically, the deal is, Nazi Germany will give you this thing you really seem to want, and in exchange, you're going to play nice, which needless to say is not how things turned out. What turned out was World War II and all the horrors that came with it.
I tell this story because we're in Munich for the Munich Security Conference at a moment when Europe is again facing a big decision, trying to figure out what are its values and how far is it willing to go to stand up for them.
We're going to talk that through now with Alexandra de Hoop Scheffer, one of the many folks rolling into town today for the Munich Security Conference. She is president of the German Marshall Fund of the United States, which is a nonpartisan organization that works to advance U.S.-European cooperation. So welcome.
ALEXANDRA DE HOOP SCHEFFER: Thank you.
KELLY: I'm saying those words out loud of what your organization does, working to advance U.S.-European cooperation. Does that feel like an endangered species in this moment?
DE HOOP SCHEFFER: Well, I think it's a time where we need to reinvent the trans-Atlantic relationship.
KELLY: I'm noting the verb you choose - reinvent.
DE HOOP SCHEFFER: Yes. Not rupture. Yes.
KELLY: Intentional?
DE HOOP SCHEFFER: It's very intentional.
KELLY: Rupture is the word of the day because of Prime Minister of Canada, Mark Carney, and him describing there's a rupture...
DE HOOP SCHEFFER: Yes.
KELLY: ...In the Alliance.
DE HOOP SCHEFFER: Yes. I think you need to reframe it in a way that we're not going back to the old playbook. So that's gone, but it's been already gone for a while. And so this is a time - and I hope this MSC will really be about it - for Europeans and Americans to get together, to be very honest about their differences. And there are many differences...
KELLY: Yeah.
DE HOOP SCHEFFER: ...Today. But how do we still find ways to work concretely together on key shared interests?
KELLY: I keep seeing polls. I'm sure you've seen the same. Public opinion in Europe - many Europeans now see America more as an adversary than an ally. How do you square that with the optimism you're saying...
DE HOOP SCHEFFER: Yeah.
KELLY: ...You hope emerges from this conversation?
DE HOOP SCHEFFER: I think it's not optimism. I think it's being very realistic. What I'm trying to do is to be very realistic of where we are. And yes, European public opinions as a whole are looking at the United States and say, is the United States still our partner, our rival, our competitor? How do we deal with that complicated American ally today? - because they see the tensions.
KELLY: What do you think? I mean, does Europe need the United States? I'm guessing you'll say yes, but really?
DE HOOP SCHEFFER: Well, one specific issue that will be at the core of the MSC conversations during these couple of days is Ukraine. Europe today should be able to manage the Ukraine crisis autonomously or with less dependencies on the United States. It can't, right? So yes, Europe still needs the United States, but Europe also needs now to build the future of European defense and security because the United States' strategic priorities are shifting. This leads Europeans today to accelerate many things on which they had put the snooze button. And so Trump, for me, yes, is a disruptor and deliberately a disruptor. But for Europeans, he's an accelerator.
KELLY: To make this a little bit personal because we're talking about big abstract policies here - you, Alexandra de Hoop Scheffer, are the niece of Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, the former head of NATO, which I mention because you grew up with all this. The trans-Atlantic Alliance is personal to you and your family. How are you feeling this moment?
DE HOOP SCHEFFER: Well, you know, I happen to have grown up in New York.
KELLY: OK (laughter).
DE HOOP SCHEFFER: So I'm a kid. I'm - you know, I was born...
KELLY: Yeah.
DE HOOP SCHEFFER: ...In the trans-Atlantic DNA. So you're right. This is very personal. So I think, yes, there are ruptures. There are disruptions. But GMF's...
KELLY: But you're in the hopeful camp?
DE HOOP SCHEFFER: Yes. Now because GMF's mission is really to look beyond the short-term political disruptions and shape the future of the trans-Atlantic relationship for the four or five years to come because if we don't do that, then Americans and Europeans will wake up four to five years from now and say, how come we ended up in this rupture divorce situation? So we have a shared interest of making this work now, despite the short-term disruptions.
KELLY: Alexandra de Hoop Scheffer - she's president of the German Marshall Fund, talking to us - as you may be able to hear - in the thick of it here at the Munich Security Conference. Thank you.
DE HOOP SCHEFFER: Thank you for having me. Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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