MICHAEL DUNNE: I'm Michael Dunne. There are a lot of physical similarities between the three West Coast states, beautiful coastlines, awe inspiring mountains, brutal traffic, just to name a few. There's a lot of cultural and political similarities as well, including strong democratic voting trends, progressive societal norms and celebrations of diversity. And these similarities are coalescing around another shared value, rebuking the federal government on vaccine policy and collaborating on a way forward. Today, on the show, you'll hear from two reporters who were among the first to report on Oregon, Washington and California joining forces to come up with collective vaccine guidance as direct opposition to what is coming out of Health and Human Services and Washington, DC, you'll hear about what this means today and what it might mean going forward. Amelia Templeton, health reporter at Oregon Public Broadcasting, really appreciate you coming on and talking with us.
AMELIA TEMPLETON: Happy to be here.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Big national news that I know, you know you were out front and center on was this, this, this collaboration between the Western States governors and vaccines. Tell us about what you found out and how it's going to all look at least as much as you can tell. Because I know this is probably a still evolving thing.
AMELIA TEMPLETON: Yeah, absolutely, this is a moving story. So earlier this week, we learned that Oregon, Washington and California are planning to work together to develop their own sort of independent vaccine guidance and how it actually works. May look a little different state to state, but that they're planning on collaborating. Hawaii has since announced that they will join the collaboration as well, and there are also reportedly talks among a number of states in the northeast, like Pennsylvania, New York, Massachusetts, about something similar. The backdrop to this is growing concerns these democratic governors have cited about the independence and the credibility of the CDC Centers for Disease Control, that all came to a head really when the Director of the CDC was fired by the White House, she has since said in an op ed in the Wall Street Journal that she was pressured both to fire career, you know, well regarded CDC scientists without cause, and that she was pressured to approve before even seeing them. Recommendations that are going to come from an advisory committee, an influential vaccine Advisory Committee, Kennedy has denied that account. Robert Kennedy Jr, yes. Robert F Kennedy, Jr, excuse me, the Secretary of Health and Human Services has to you know, in a grilling in the Senate Finance Committee, said that that's not true. His account is that the Director of the CDC, a Trump appointee who Kennedy had himself praised earlier, had Keith asked her if she was trustworthy, and she had said no, he did acknowledge that he had, he had directed her to fire some individuals so, that that is sort of part of the backdrop of this, of this group. But the other piece of it is really changes in this important Advisory Committee. It's called ACIP, the Advisory Committee for Immunization Practices. It's the group that, during the pandemic, came up with the recommendations for essentially, who should get the Covid 19 vaccine. It's a group that develops the childhood vaccination schedule for the CDC, and while the CDC director isn't isn't sort of required to green light all of their recommendations, it's a very influential committee, and one that RFK Jr has fired 17 members of and then reconstituted so that committee is planning to meet in about two weeks, and the covid 19 booster for this year is on their agenda. So are several childhood vaccines, including one of the vaccines, the sort of combined vaccines against the measles and so I do think the timing of all that matters. I think we've seen some senators, including a Republican senator, say that, depending on what that committee does, states shouldn't necessarily consider their recommendations to be, to be credible, or are to follow them. And so we're seeing this kind of broader potential break with the CDC that now Oregon, Washington, California and Hawaii are sort of pressing forward with.
MICHAEL DUNNE: I wonder, to the best of your ability, is this a health story clouded by politics, or is this a political story clouded by health? The reason I ask it that way is because obviously, these are blue states, and obviously, you know, California and their Governor Gavin Newsom has been almost the face of the Trump administration dissatisfaction and even resistance towards so I totally understand the health reasons for what's happening here, but, but this is this also seems like a case of, you know, obviously garnering some publicity around saying, we don't think this White House, and we certainly don't think that this Health and Human Services Secretary knows what they're doing.
AMELIA TEMPLETON: Yeah, I think that's a savvy and important question. And look, you know, there's only so much any of these governors can do unilaterally to shape vaccine policy. I think a lot of real change would potentially require action by state legislatures in each of these three states. So I think for people to view this on some level as either a symbolic statement or a bit of a publicity stunt, I don't think it's wrong to see an element of that here. Okay, that said, I do not think that as the only the only lens, and I do think that there are credible questions about what states should do, particularly in my eyes when it comes to the childhood vaccine schedule say, you know, it would be hard to overstate, you know, the Covid 19 booster, because Covidis sort of the, the catalyst that politicized all of this for everybody, sure, I think it gets a lot of attention. But you know, those childhood vaccines are the backbone of public health in the United States, and so I think the potential for a change to the childhood vaccine schedule, it's not unreasonable for state governors to want to come up with their own response to that.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Yeah, so as best you can how will this work? And is there an idea of how the states work together? I mean, for example, could, could one state, maybe California, because it's larger, take more of a leadership role in developing all this or kind of, as best you can glean. Again, understanding this is all very new, but how could it all sort of work, is what happened during Covid, is that perhaps a model?
AMELIA TEMPLETON: Yeah, although I think what happened during Covid that's kind of an interesting place to start, because these three states did work together during the pandemic. They announced that they were going to establish their own independent sort of scientific review of the Covid19 vaccines. And we actually heard from Oregon State Epidemiologist yesterday, Dean side linger, who essentially said, you know, we were concerned about political interference in the vaccine approval process during the first administration of President Trump. And that never materialized. And they kind of acknowledged that, you know, in the end, there wasn't really a need for a separate review of those vaccines by Oregon, Washington and California. They didn't reach any different conclusions at the time than, you know, the CDC and the FDA. And, of course, you know, these are three states that ended up being very
working really hard to encourage as much vaccination as possible. You know, in contrast with a number of states led by Republican governors, I think in terms of what they can actually do working together. I haven't heard a lot of specific examples with one exception, and that is if you imagine that some of what might need to happen, you know, say the CDC doesn't approve a vaccine that the States believe is still necessary for people on Medicaid, you might wind up in a scenario where these states are looking to purchase their own supply of some vaccine and where there may be some advantage if they're negotiating, certainly for Oregon and Washington, which are far smaller than California, sure, you know, we may be able to get a better deal if we are part of a coalition like this. That's, you know, speculation, but it is something that people pointed me to when I asked, Why is a group like this necessary? What, you know, what practically do you think you're going to be able to do here? I'm also wondering this, you know, obviously we're, we're, we have concerns of what might happen with regard to Covid and the schedule for childhood vaccines, and that's certainly warranted. But we're also looking at actual results right now in terms of a disease like measles, which has had an outbreak, as I understand it, that this country hasn't seen in decades.
MICHAEL DUNNE: And so I am wondering again, getting back to the real health side of this equation, these governors thinking, wow, they've already failed. They being the CDC and the Health and Human Services Secretary, they're already, in our estimation, getting a failing grade for handling an outbreak like measles. We better get together and build some sort of a firewall in case things really go off the rails for something like Covid or some other type of pathogen?
AMELIA TEMPLETON: Yeah. I mean, I think there was a very interesting comment on this effort yesterday that came from Washington Senator Patty Murray, which was just to throw a little bit of cold water on the idea that states can go it alone. And you've seen this in the current measles outbreak. You know, people travel across state borders. Sure, pathogens travel across state borders. None of these states, I guess, with the exception of Hawaii, is an island. Certainly Oregon, California and Washington are not islands. And I do think the idea that you're trying to replace the CDC with a regional effort is one that we'll have to see where it goes, you know, but, but certainly when it comes to something like, you know, the measles, one of the most contagious pathogens out there. Outbreaks can travel across state lines, and that's one of the arguments for why you need a clear and coherent federal policy.
MICHAEL DUNNE: It's a political question, but I think it factors well into what's happening here are the governor to our south in California, like I said before, Newsom has been out front and center, really poking the bear with regard to the Trump actions and activities our governor, Governor Kotick, perhaps less so and hasn't been certainly, certainly out front in terms of calling out the White House. I'm wondering from what you can observe, is this maybe part of her effort to say, I want to be part of the resistance as well.
AMELIA TEMPLETON: I don't, I don't know. I don't think I have good insight into that, into that question. And I think that, I think that there's an inherent challenge here, which is that there are plenty of Oregonians who have their own fears or concerns or questions about vaccines. And you know, Oregon has long been a place where anti vaccine sentiment is compelling to any number of people. And so I think the more that you lean into using this issue as a political tool, from my perspective as a health reporter, that almost cheapens it, because at the end of the day, the point is to get the best information to people who are making crucial, truly, life and death decisions about their health and their family's health and their children's health. And you know, I think we, we all, need that information to be de-politicized. Information that is for everybody, red or blue, as much as it can be.
MICHAEL DUNNE: I'm wondering, as you're going forward with this story, what do you think like county health directors, county medical directors, public health experts in the States? Do you feel like this gives them, I don't know, cover with regard to guidance and does it give them tools that maybe they were concerned they weren't going to get from the CDC?
AMELIA TEMPLETON: I mean, I don't think we know yet. I think one of the biggest questions in all of this is about insurance and about payment. There are a lot of people who will get a vaccine if it's paid for by their health insurer. Sure, in Oregon, about one in three people in the state is on Medicaid, and these vaccines can be quite expensive if you're paying for them out of pocket. And so for me, as a health reporter, the first question that I have is, when, when the dust settles and we have a recommendation from that advisory committee I'd mentioned, and we have, however these states are going to respond for whom will these vaccines be paid for, and will, will the people who most need them, you know, be able to get them at their local pharmacy? Because that is where a lot of people go to get their vaccines, and in Oregon, it's already, you know, become hard enough just to find a local pharmacy. So, I do think that the question of, will it be paid for, and where can I get it? Those are two very simple things that people who want vaccines will need to know the answers to, and that are really very murky right now. And yeah, if, if the state is able to clarify that, that, I think, is probably also information that those county public health directors are looking for.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Well, Amelia Templeton, I know you'll stay on this story. She is the health reporter at OPB again. Really appreciate you jumping on and talking with us.
AMELIA TEMPLETON: Absolutely happy to do it.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Let's also check in with reporter at The Oregonian, who sees this as a strong rebuke of the Health and Human Services Secretary. Kristine de Leon, a reporter at The Oregonian. Thank you so much for coming on and talking with us.
KRISTINE DE LEON: Well, thank you for having me.
MICHAEL DUNNE: I don't want to oversell this, but just wanted to get your opinion. This is a pretty big deal, isn't it?
KRISTINE DE LEON: Yeah, it's a pretty big deal. It's so the states have in the past, like the West Coast states have in the past, partnered, like during the pandemic, to coordinate some guidelines. Like, for example, they had like they formed that Western states packed, and that was formed to review vaccine recommendations, and they were also coordinating like mask mandates and Pandemic restrictions. But this is a little different, because it's well, there. So usually, the CDC has them inform national policy. And so when you have states that are forming their own vaccine guidelines that are separate from the CDC, that kind of raises questions about pharmacist authority and also insurance coverage for vaccines. And I did talk to a vaccine law expert who's based at the University of California, College of Law in San Francisco, and they said that states do have tools at their disposal, so states could pass laws to change their pharmacy laws well, so states could change their pharmacy laws to broaden a pharmacist authority for giving out vaccines that are not yet approved by the CDC, and they could also mandate their insurers to cover the vaccines too.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Okay, so last week, RFK was up on Capitol Hill getting grilled by the Senate regarding including our own senator, Wyden. Basically, a lot of people are taking him to task, saying he lied at his confirmation hearings about supporting vaccines, and now they're kind of saying that he's been very disingenuous. And I'm wondering, in addition to the practical matter of what these three governors are doing with regard to vaccines, is this also kind of a very public rebuke of Robert F Kennedy Jr, the Health and Human Services Secretary in general.
KRISTINE DE LEON: Oh yes, yes, yeah. It was, yes, pretty much. It's definitely a criticism of RF case leadership, and there have been calls among the medical community as well for his resignation or questioning his leadership style. And we saw, believe it was over the weekend when nine former CDC directors from previous administrations have penned an editorial in the New York Times saying that leadership style is pretty unprecedented, and criticizing this dismissal of scientific evidence.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Well, this is just sort of chapter one of this, of this story Kristine de Leon, who is a reporter at The Oregonian talking about the Western Governors joining forces with regard to vaccine policy. Thank you so much for your time and coming on the program.
KRISTINE DE LEON: Yeah, thank you.
MICHAEL DUNNE: That's the show for today. All episodes of Oregon On The Record are available as a podcast at KLCC.org. Tomorrow, on the show, we will talk about cats. No, not the cuddly kind that you have at home, but the large and reclusive kind cougars. They strike fear into the hearts of hikers and anger in ranchers, but experts explain that they're incredibly valuable to the environment and the victim of much incorrect mythology. I'm Michael Dunne, and this has been Oregon On The Record from KLCC. Thanks for listening
