Links to resources:
End of Life Choices Oregon
Oregon's Death with Dignity Act
The following transcript was generated using automated transcription software for the accessibility and convenience of our audience. While we strive for accuracy, the automated process may introduce errors, omissions, or misinterpretations. This transcript is intended as a helpful companion to the original audio and should not be considered a verbatim record. For the most accurate representation, please refer to the audio recording.
MICHAEL DUNNE: I'm Michael Dunne. Yesterday, listeners got to meet a person who's no longer with us. His name was Tom Lehman, and using the program called M.A.I.D. or medical assistance in dying, he chose to end his life on May 5, after a terminal diagnosis of COPD. Tom, allowed us to tell his story and give you the listener insight into his profound decision to pick the method and date of his own death. Today on the show, we pick up the story and hear about how even in choosing to die, life gets in the way. Specifically, Tom and his daughter, Shannon, will share some of the logistical challenges of picking a date and trying to accommodate all the people that one is going to leave behind in the end. It's the ultimate personal decision, but one that has repercussions for those who keep on living. In our conversations today, we talk about some of the basic challenges one has to go through in selecting the date of their death and how to try and accommodate the people in one's life, and we'll also talk to such a person, Tom's daughter, who also had to help navigate life's challenges toward the decision and timing of Tom's death. Hey, Tom, you know, it's been a while since we spoke, and I wanted to ask you, I know you've postponed your date a couple times, and I just wanted you to kind of explain to folks what you're wrestling with in terms OF selecting the right date?
TOM LEHMAN: Okay, the date. I wanted it near the first of the month, so I’m able to pay that month when I receive my money from the government in order to pay my bills, not to pass on that month's bills on to whoever might receive the property in my will, okay? And the reason I did it the first time was that my sister was extremely sensitive, and I just told her I'm not going to do it on that date. Okay, I didn't tell her we wouldn't do it on the next day, but I told her I wouldn't do it on that date. That calmed her down. And then I got the opportunity to have my daughter come up, but she was, she was in such a way that she couldn't get away at that time, okay? And I told her, Okay, I'll do this one more time. I'm going to wait till the next first part of the month, so I can, you know, get my bills paid, sure, and I'll wait for her, because I did want her to be up here, and I wanted to go over some things personally about my scheme to sell my story and pictures of me on eBay, which I'm hoping she'll be able to make some money for my son to pay my outstanding bills. Well, and my son was, he was unwilling to sell the property and pay the bills. He thought that he could keep the property, but he's not in any financial situation to do so he can't even keep up with his own bills right now. So I've chosen someone who I trust very much that can funnel him money that can give him money over a period of time, and I don't have to feel like he's just using it on frivolous things.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Tom, you know, it's interesting talking to you. You have this decision that, you know, the vast, vast, vast majority of people would never want to make, and yet, at the same time you're having to make all of these smaller decisions around this larger decision. It must be quite the challenge.
TOM LEHMAN: It's frustrating. I mean, I've made my mind up. I am going to take it. I'm going to die, and I'm going to be glad that I did. I'm waiting for the time. It seems like my days are taking, like, a week at a time to go by. I want to go that much, yeah, and I'm not going to let anything stop me this time, it'll be around the first of the month and after my bills are paid. I know it sounds silly. You know that a guy who's going to die should care about his bills, but, you know, I care about my family. I care about everybody involved. And just because I'm dying, it doesn't mean I can't pay my bills. You know, I don't have, like, cash on hand to pay everything off and it be more comfortable for everyone else, but it's just that's just the way it is.
MICHAEL DUNNE: We'll break into our conversation with Tom to talk with his daughter, Shannon, she had to both accommodate her father's wishes while at the same time advocate for her desires as a loving daughter and ultimate protector of her dad's legacy.
SHANNON ALLEN: I first got news, I think it was third hand, and there was some misunderstanding. We thought it was happening that coming weekend, so we were scrambling and kind of panicking and like, wait what? And then I talked to him, and he was like, no, no, no, no. It's just, you know, I don't know when I'm doing it. He hadn't even gotten the medicine yet, I think. And so we just kind of talked about it. And, you know, one of the things that he said was that, I don't remember if it was in that first conversation or one shortly following, where he just felt liberated, and I had definitely noticed a difference in his physical and mental spirit, like he'd been uplifted. Like, I just think it gave him kind of peace of mind, and I think it gave him more life.
MICHAEL DUNNE: But of course, as a daughter, I mean, you know, what was your thought?
SHANNON ALLEN: I mean, obviously, well, we had gone through something, and I can't remember the timing like maybe he was already planning for this medicine or knew of it, but there was a conversation prior, and I wish I could remember how much prior, where he had suggested that none of his kids when he dies, no one claimed his body, so that We didn't incur any expenses. And that was a hard no for me, you know. And he is, he's the only father I've really known, but he is my stepfather and I, you know, I have no memories without him. So, It wasn't possible, as a child, as his daughter, to let his body go unclaimed, you know, for all his faults and maybe things he didn't do right in life, to not claim his body. I couldn't live with myself. I couldn't dishonor him like that. And so, part of un-claiming It meant it would go to science. And so, I was like, let's figure that out differently. How can we do this? And that's when we came up with the Bio Gift and that whole thing, which was absolutely incredible, but so my fight with him was over, leaving his body unclaimed, but even then, you know, I wanted to support his choice, but that was a boundary for me.
MICHAEL DUNNE: These last few minutes of the show will be some final thoughts from Tom and Shannon to sum up Tom's decision to end his life, and observations from Shannon, who was there with him at the very end.
TOM LEHMAN: I'm a scientist by nature, not by my education, but I do like to do things using the scientific method. I don't believe in hocus pocus. I don't believe in religion, and that's probably to my benefit, but I also believe that energy isn't just destroyed, and somehow, maybe, maybe not, my thoughts won't be destroyed.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Well, you will find out.
TOM LEHMAN: You know, I'll be the first to find out, well or not, you know, I, I don't even know how to talk about it.
MICHAEL DUNNE: One last time, we'll bring in Tom's daughter who is with him at the very end, to get her thoughts on the experience. You were with him and however comfortable you are sharing, can you kind of describe what it was like that day when he took the medicine to end his life?
SHANNON ALLEN: What was it like when I was there? I wouldn't have had it any other way. From the time he took the medicine to today, I haven't shed a tear, and I'm really at peace with it. There are moments where I think, Oh, I haven't talked to him. I need to check on him, because I checked on him pretty regularly via video, sure. And then it's like, oh, he's not there. I've never shed a tear. I don't know if I was just ready or if I just kind of had become numb with everything else going on. So I'm prepared for that. It might hit me later, but being in the room with him, it just felt like the right thing to do. And I'm not a nurse, but I could kind of see, like, how nurses’ kind of view it. This is what's happening. I just wanted to be strong and supportive, but that was something I came into with the mindset of that I was the support team, and I was going to be strong for everyone, being prepared to fall apart later. And for me, personally, for me, the right thing to do was I didn't want to leave his property until his body had been taken away. And I think that got a little emotional, just I didn't cry, but it was like I knew it was a final. I think that, for me, was more the final finality.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Did it seem as best, again, as best as you can describe, or however you'd like to describe - did it appear as though he were at peace during the process?
SHANNON ALLEN: Oh, completely, completely at peace. There was one thing, no one had mentioned, but he got really, really itchy, so he had taken the medicine, and then someone had made a bowl of sorbet for him, and I was like, Hey, do you want to take a bite of this to get the bitterness out of his mouth? He didn't find it bitter, but he says, Yes, but I don't want to fall down. It was like, I'm not going to let you fall down. So, he took a bite of it, he laid down, and almost as soon as he laid down, he started scratching everything. And then we sat him up, and we're scratching his back, but I could see in his eyes, you know how, like, when you just like, feel so good, your eyes are getting glossy. So, we had that. I didn't know how much of that was coming from the joy of the back scratch or the medicine kicking in. And, but he was very itchy, and this went on for, I don't know, a minute or so and, and I was just a little nervous that if he went into the coma, like I didn't want him falling forward. And so, I had just encouraged him. I said, Do you think you could just try to maybe breathe through the itch, I'll guide you through. And he said, Yes. So we laid him down, and from the time we laid him down, his fingers were scratching his neck, and they were getting slower and slower, and so I believe that's when he went into the coma. You know, and everything was really peaceful. There were some snoring noises that took us by surprise, but nothing, nothing that was traumatic.
MICHAEL DUNNE: I'm wondering, you know, you went through this with him, and you know, as a surviving daughter, what would you say to people who might be thinking that this could be right for them, or maybe they're just curious, you know, as someone who witnessed both the lead up and the decision and the actual, you know, moment when It happened, what do you want people to know about this process?
SHANNON ALLEN: Well, I would really, really encourage watching that documentary, Dying In Oregon. And there might be many others out there that I'm not aware of, but I saw that and that just really solidified for me what was important to me. It's hard, and different people have different views. I mean, you know, some of my siblings were completely against this and didn't, didn't believe it was right, and they're entitled to that. But I think you know; part of living is dying. And as a society, we've chosen not to talk about it, not deal with it. And I know one thing he struggled with was all the people like reaching out to him or, you know, having to. How do I say this kind of headache of planning your dad? But as much as he was complaining, I was like, how lucky are you? How lucky are you? My estranged husband passed away a few years ago, and, you know, and to try to pick up all those pieces and manage everything is a lot. My dad got to make his own choices to the very, very end, and people had the opportunity to tell him how they felt, to ask him questions, to, you know, there was a lot, there's a lot of blessings, you know, in him making the choice he did, versus, you know, us just getting a phone call unexpectedly that he had passed. It's a weighty issue. I think we need to start normalizing the conversation around death so that people are more comfortable talking about it and planning for it.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Yeah, yeah. Very well said. Shannon, you know, I was honored that your father allowed me into his house to talk about this, and it's certainly been great getting to know you, and I really appreciate you taking the time to talk about this experience.
SHANNON ALLEN: Well, good. I know he has been a huge fan of NPR. I know he's going to be tickled that this got wrapped up for him and I really appreciate your involvement.
MICHAEL DUNNE: And now the final thoughts of Tom Lehman. Is there anything else you want to say to people listening or whatever.
TOM LEHMAN: Yes, well, I'd like to give them a phone number.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Please do.
TOM LEHMAN: The number is for End of Life Choices Oregon. 503-922-1132. They came out – a man and woman - they're volunteers, very sweet people, very understanding. They hooked me up with the prescribing doctor, and that doctor hooked me up with the other doctor. It takes two doctors to sign off on it, okay, and like I say, it took about three, I'd say two or three days, and I had my prescription. The prescription, well, I'm on Medicare, so it costs me nothing. Okay, another thing I'd like to discuss is, now I've, I'm utilizing Bio Gift, which is a company that supplies cadavers to science and for teaching and Bio Gift gift will take care of all the transportation, such as from the home or wherever you might expire, to the mortuary, and they pay for the cremation, and they deliver the remains to whoever you deem appropriate. And they also give you two official death certificates, all for free. And the death certificates will cost you $25 a piece if you go down to get one yourself.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Very good. Tom, I guess all I can say is this, thank you for sharing your story with our listeners. And I'm someone who gets paid to talk, and I probably don't have words, but I just hope it goes as well as you're envisioning it going.
TOM LEHMAN: Well, thank you. Hey, you could say, Have a nice death!!
MICHAEL DUNNE: That's the show for today. If you missed part one of this series, go to KLCC.org, to hear that or any of our previous shows. I know it's strange to hear the voice of someone no longer with us. I got a chance to know Tom, and even though it was only for a few interviews, I was honored to get to know him, and I'll miss him. He made the ultimate personal decision to end his life on his own terms. It's a choice we can legally make in Oregon, and Tom ultimately hopes that through these interviews he might help listeners better understand this process. We'll be back tomorrow with another show. I'm Michael Dunne, and this has been Oregon On the Record. Thanks for listening.
