The following transcript was generated using automated transcription software for the accessibility and convenience of our audience. While we strive for accuracy, the automated process may introduce errors, omissions, or misinterpretations. This transcript is intended as a helpful companion to the original audio and should not be considered a verbatim record. For the most accurate representation, please refer to the audio recording.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Sometimes it feels like we live in Big Tech's world, and they can do anything they want. And issues like privacy and sourcing material are completely at their control. Well, a bill is winding its way through the Oregon legislature that would at least in part, bring big tech to heel. Specifically, it would require big tech to pay money to local newsrooms and reporters who develop the actual stories that big tech posts on their sites. Today, on the show, we'll talk to the bill's sponsor about what it does and how it works. Then in the second half of the show, we'll talk to the editor of the community's alt weekly about its comeback from a crippling embezzlement scandal. Senator Khanh Pham, thanks so much for coming on and talking with us.
SENATOR KHANH PHAM: I'm happy to be here.
MICHAEL DUNNE: So as I understand it, you've introduced Senate Bill 686. Tell us about it. What's in the bill?
SENATOR KHANH PHAM: Senate Bill 686 is a bill that would require mega platforms like Google and meta to pay a fair share of the news content revenue to the news publishers and journalists who created that content in the first place. So, through that we would collect that revenue, that news content revenue, and then 90% of that fund would go to news organizations based on the number of journalists they employ, and then 10% would go to an Oregon civic information consortium to give out in small grants to smaller publications, nice, niche publications, rural communities, ethnic, ethnic media in the form of grants to support these. These smaller media startups often don't have the same number of readers, but really serve critical information roles in their community.
MICHAEL DUNNE: So just so I understand, the Oregonian, or the Eugene Register Guard, or even us at KLCC, if, if we publish a story, and then Google puts it out there in their search engine then, because of that, it was original journalism from a newspaper or other types of a source. Then, then that's where this bill would kind of kick in?
SENATOR KHANH PHAM: Exactly. And that's right, I think people are seeing now, if I go and I want to search on, you know, the Portland night market, for example, what will come up will actually be an AI Google AI overview that has essentially scraped the content of, you know, a few news articles about this topic and then summarize it using artificial intelligence and give me the information I need, but without directing me to The actual original news sites that created that information, and that is having a huge impact on news publishers. It was already having an impact before AI, but AI has now supercharged that loss. We've seen a 95% reduction in Google Search referrals since the introduction of AI, and that's only going to continue on meta and all the big tech platforms are now introducing AI, and this bill seeks to write that market failure, to make sure that journalists and publisher publishers get compensated.
MICHAEL DUNNE: And so I would imagine, you know, looking out at the news landscape, and certainly we have all seen smaller newspapers fold and some have been in business for a century. Is that kind of part of the intent here is to help rescue, to some degree, you know, local journalism throughout the state of Oregon?
SENATOR KHANH PHAM: Yes, we have seen one out of four, more than one out of four news outlets in Oregon closed in the last 20 years. This month, the Malheur Enterprise, which is over a century old, one of the most decorated, award winning newspapers, just announced their last print edition last Wednesday, and they're closing completely at the end of the month. And that is an entire community, an entire county, that is losing their voice. They're losing their access to information about school closures during the pandemic. It was, you know, during the wildfire season, where do you get information or help these our local newspapers play such a critical role in connecting and informing our communities, and so that's really what's motivating my desire. So many of my colleagues desire to support this bill to ensure that we don't have more newspapers closing and we don't lose more journalism jobs. Even as one in four news outlets have closed, 75% of journalism jobs have actually been lost in the last 20 years as well, and that's and that's had a huge impact on coverage and our ability to keep our community informed.
MICHAEL DUNNE: You mentioned your colleagues, it sounds like from the research I've done, you've got a pretty broad coalition of legislators that are that are signing on to this. Is that correct?
SENATOR KHANH PHAM: Yes, you know, we have legislators from all different parts of the states. We have both Republicans and Democrats and folks in the House and Senate who have just recognized that if we want a healthy democracy, we need to have an informed electorate. So, I'm really happy about the broad coalition that includes journalists and news publishers, community organizations, broadcasters who've all and just ordinary, everyday Oregonians who all have come together to say, we need to protect local journalism, especially in this moment where so many democratic institutions are under attack, we need to make sure that we have an Informed Electorate, a formed constituency who can, who can make, who can hold government accountable as well. I think even legislators, as much as journalists, might be a thorn in our side, asking us tough questions. We know that we need that accountability if we want to serve Oregonians.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Well, I have to imagine that opponents to this bill, and imagine some of the organizations you've talked about, the Googles and Meta’s of the world... what are they saying?
SENATOR KHANH PHAM: So, as expected, some of the largest big tech corporations that have transformed our world and profited immensely are not reacting positively to the idea of being regulated, and it's not even regulation, where they don't want to share the profits. They've made massive profits off of these news publishers and this is, this is they know that if it happens here in Oregon, it's going to also happen in Canada. Well, it has happened in Canada, but they know that this has happened already in Canada and Australia. States like California have tried and have settled, and so they are trying to throw every argument in the book. But I'm really happy that we've been able to keep the conversation focused on what is on the suit on the real problem we're trying to solve, which is the fact that we, our local newspapers, are struggling. And a big part of that is because big tech has unfairly monopolized the media landscape, the advertising landscape, and they've and they need to be able to pay their fair share.
MICHAEL DUNNE: I read a story that one of your colleagues, Senator James Manning, was even saying that he almost felt threatened or intimidated a little bit by some tech representatives coming to his office. Are you aware of that situation?
SENATOR KHANH PHAM: Yeah, you know, he did mention that to me and my colleagues and in the Salem in the building in the Capitol, it's not unheard of for lobbyists to use all kinds of tactics, but as Senator Manning pointed out, that those aren't the actions of a responsible corporation to threaten, to threaten what they'll do. We need to think about what they're providing. A social utility that accesses information and news about communities is a social utility. It's a threatened to kind of cut us off from that is a very serious, serious threat to make.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Obviously they have deep pockets. They can afford high priced lawyers. Do you have some concerns about how this might play out legally?
SENATOR KHANH PHAM: Yes, I'm positive that they will make sure that their lawyers are finding whatever attack modes they can find. But I am happy to say that in Canada, just this month, $100 million is starting to flow into Canadian newsrooms, just this year, and that's a result of the online news act that Canada passed to make sure that their news publishers were fairly compensated by Google and meta. So we actually have proof that this model is possible. It can work, and Google, despite threatening that they would not participate, would cut off news content is actually participating in is now contributing to these payments, which are going to be a lifeline to local news in that country. And I'm confident that the same thing will happen here in Oregon.
MICHAEL DUNNE: I imagine you probably get calls and emails from your colleagues in other states thinking, Boy, that this is quite interesting.
SENATOR KHANH PHAM: Yeah, I we haven't gotten a call yet, but I do expect that once we can pass this in Oregon, absolutely, I think this is a problem that states across the country and frankly, the world, are facing and knowing and understanding that we need to take action, or else we're going to continue seeing the decline, losing more journalism jobs, losing more newspapers. And once those newspapers are gone, it is so much harder to bring them back.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Senator, my last question for you is, sort of, can you give us sort of what happens next with the bill, and do you believe that the governor will sign it?
SENATOR KHANH PHAM: We’ve got a lot of broad support, including from the House Majority Leader, representative Ben Bowman, and the governor has already expressed her support for the bill. So, if we can get it out of the house as well, I'm confident that the governor would also sign it.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Senator, thank you so much for coming on and talking with us about your bill.
SENATOR KHANH PHAM: Thank you so much for having me.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Let’s now check in with the Eugene Weekly that almost went out of business due to internal theft, but is now back and hoping to grow and grow. Camilla Mortensen, the editor of the Eugene Weekly, thanks so much for coming in and talking to us.
CAMILLA MORTENSEN: Thanks for having me.
MICHAEL DUNNE: How are things going at the Weekly?
CAMILLA MORTENSEN: That is an excellent question. I think they are going. They have been on an upward trajectory as we have been recovering from the embezzlement, we're starting to print more pages. Advertising support is growing, and as well as grant support, as well, we got a press forward grant we found out about earlier this year and some other things in the work. So still, still an ongoing project, but improving all the time.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Just kind of remind listeners about the recent news, and you know about the embezzlement and where it sort of stands right now.
CAMILLA MORTENSEN: I think a lot of listeners will remember that we revealed back in December 2023 that we had discovered thousands in funds missing, and thousands in funds that were bills that had been unpaid, that we hadn't paid our printer, $70,000 printer bill, and that led to us shutting down for about six weeks. We went back to press in early February 2024, and as soon as we discovered the missing funds, we reported it to Eugene police, and that was when the investigation into it opened up.
MICHAEL DUNNE: And recently, the person who did that has been brought to justice. Is that correct?
CAMILLA MORTENSEN: Not quite all the way brought to justice, but has been arrested.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Is that an element of closure for you to sort of see that happen?
CAMILLA MORTENSEN: I think it'll be full closure once this sort of makes its way through the courts. But definitely, I know it's been difficult for us and difficult for the public to not that we hadn't named the embezzler, and to have someone indicted and then arrested, I think brings, brings a sigh of relief.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Talk about how you had to manage through this process, but also talk about how, you know, both the staff came together, but also the community support that you got.
CAMILLA MORTENSEN: It was amazing when we discovered it kind of trickled out over a couple days, the extent of the embezzlement and the funds that the unpaid bills. You know, one minute we're finding the printer bill, the next word, you know, the gas is about to be shut off. And that was very quickly the paper’s owner realized that there was just nothing, nothing in the bank, and 1000s owed. And that was when everybody was laid off, including me, the entire staff. And when that decision was made, my response was to be like, Well, I still have things to edit, so I'm just gonna go upstairs and work on that. So, we began publishing online, and as soon as I did that, a bunch of staff were like, well, what can we do? And interns catalyst journalism project. And one of the things that we decided was that we couldn't just disappear a lot of embezzlements, the business just goes under, or the business, you know, swallows the cost and tries to continue. And in our case, we're a newspaper, so we couldn't just disappear without telling people what happened. And one of the staffers just said, Well, you know, what if we don't just tell them what happened? What if we give the community a chance to see if they want to help? So that was, that was what we decided to do. So, we put out the appeal, we published, we printed one more issue, and then we put out that appeal the day that we knew people would be looking for the Weekly we and I’m pretty sure from past experience. I can say this in the radio, that's when we put on the website, where's the damn paper, and gave an explanation of what had happened.
MICHAEL DUNNE: And then, you know, you're kind of this rising from the ashes. Talk about how members of the community wrote checks, you know, that sort of thing, to keep it all on track.
CAMILLA MORTENSEN: It was pretty amazing. As soon as we published that story, people began dropping by. Businesses began offering to do fundraisers. And, you know, initially people are like, What can I do to help? And I'm like, I don't know. And then they just were like, Fine, I'll just go ahead and do a fundraiser. And I'm like, thank you. So, businesses all across towns, all across the town, began doing fundraisers, and community members would come in and they would bring in, you know, they would bring in a check, they would bring in a couple dollars. And I mean, those, the full array, really touched me, because when someone comes in and they give you $5 you know that that's, that's like, the max they have to give. And people just sort of brought by and offered support, and within, I think, we raised $100,000 within just a week. It was really, it was really, pretty fast. And that then gave the ownership hope, and they were like, yes, we can, actually, we can bring this back.
MICHAEL DUNNE: What did people tell you when they brought those $5 checks or whatever? What did they tell you about why this was important to them?
CAMILLA MORTENSEN: I think I remember one of them was the folks from the book of mine down in Cottage Grove. Like they were like, we get this every week they were crying as they brought in the money that they had raised. I think it kind of, it reminds me of back during the pandemic, when a lot of places stopped printing for a bit, sure, and we decided not to stop printing, because we're like, you know, the paper like, this is that people's touchdown, this is their thing they do on Thursday, or the crossword on Saturday. And that, I think, was a sentiment we got from lots of people, is like, this is the community's paper. And I need to, you know, I need to pick up my weekly and not just publish online. We actually continued to put things online, but people really wanted to have that print paper in their hand with all the kind of odd, quirky stuff that we do, I think we're one thing. We're back up to, I think, 28,000 copies right now, sometimes a little more than that, and I noticed that the stranger the alt week in Seattle has recently announced that they were zooming. I don't know if it's like hearkening back to time gone by, or if it's something that people got so caught up in the digital that they forgot that you can't just take away from people what they love. And there's some things that are kind of ongoing, like having the paper in your hand, having, you know, things come out sort of on a rhythm, like knowing when it's going to show up, knowing that it's going to show up on the website. I think those are all elements of it. And you know, as much as everyone loves Wordle, you know, I'll go to some store to buy something, and I can see the clerk sitting there, like doing their crossword puzzle on the weekly and I think, I think that's an element too. And there's just this. There's a feeling of posterity that comes with print. Because I'll tell someone like, oh, you know, I see, you know, your letters about Trump, we tend to run those letters online, not in print. And they'll be like, Oh, no, this is really important that it's in print. They want those words. They want it, you know, to be held in their hands.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Two last questions for you. The first one is a lot of newspapers all over the place, and certainly here in Oregon, have had to close. I mean, it's, it's been a pretty bad few, you know, years, if not decades, for newspapers. I mean, but you are surviving. Do you think that kind of, again, going back to the phraseology of lessons learned, I mean, is there something there that perhaps other newspapers could kind of see and say, Okay, this might be a way in which, you know, we might be able to survive?
CAMILLA MORTENSEN: I think with us, my policy has always been, you know, change with change, with As things are changing, keep up with changes, but also hold on to what makes what people love. And I think one people do still, they still love print for whatever reason. They still love print. I mean, I still love print, so I get that. And then also, you know, we are an alternative weekly so, you know, we can be snarky, we curse, you know, we try to cover what's not what others aren't covered. But we're also really aware that we're a community paper, and we really try to make the community feel involved in the paper and that it's theirs. And I think that really showed up with the embezzlement and the way that community came together, because they're like, this is, this is Eugene's paper. This is, you know, Lane County's paper, and we're not going to, not going to let this go, and that's something we're taking into account as we look to the future, and we're looking at ways to form a nonprofit that would own the paper, or other ways that that it is a community it truly is a community paper. Because I think that's the big loss that communities had, is this touchstone, like, you know, are the folks in mall you're still going to be able to get news? Yes. Are they going to get their community news? No. And that's, you know, that's a tragedy on so many levels, just from things like getting a small business name in the paper to not having government transparency.
MICHAEL DUNNE: My last question, you teed this up a little bit perfectly in terms of look to the future. As I said, your instructor, you're around a lot of young journalists. I mean, kind of from your perspective, are you optimistic about the people who are still going into journalism as students?
CAMILLA MORTENSEN: I am, because I think you know, when people ask me what makes a good journalist first, one of the first things I always say is curiosity. And because the element you really can't teach, and I see these, you know, these curious students who just, they want to, they want to get the news out, and they want to understand the news. And there's an accountability to news that social media doesn't have. And I think as social media becomes kind of more fragmented and diverse, it also loses that sort of central location of information. One of the things that we brought back recently at the weekly is activist alert. We just we run this little column that basically is like all the different marches, protests, political trainings that are going on. And the reason we brought it back is I got some people calling saying, I keep missing the protest. Where was it posted? Where? How was I supposed to know about it, you know? And it was on, it was on Reddit, and it was on Facebook, and it was different places, but there was no list, and so, and I've gotten people going, like, Thank you for your journalism. And I'm like, Oh my goodness. Like, I'm just making a list, but honestly, that list is what the community wants and so important. And just bringing people back to that same page, I think, is so much of an aspect of what the students are looking for, too. They really want to to get that information out to people now.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Camilla Mortensen, editor of the Eugene Weekly, thanks so much as always, for coming in and chatting.
CAMILLA MORTENSEN: Thanks for having me.
MICHAEL DUNNE: That's the show for today. All episodes of Oregon On The Record are available as a podcast atklcc.org. Tomorrow on the show, you'll hear from a local choir that is celebrating an anniversary as both a chorus but also as a safe space for the lesbian singing community. And we'll also get you caught up on fun events happening in the community for spring and summer. I'm Michael Dunne, and this has been organ on the record from KLCC. Thanks for listening.
