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MICHAEL DUNNE: I'm Michael Dunne. The University of Oregon football program is one of the best in the nation, but the ultimate title of national champion remains elusive. What you may not know is that the university is a six-time national champion in another discipline that has existed at the University for more than 100 years, debate. Unfortunately, that historic team and the entire forensics program is on the chopping block due to budget cuts. Today, on the show, you'll hear from the instructor trying to keep the department alive, and you'll hear from two students whose lives were actually changed by being a part of this debate and mock trial community. While it would be unthinkable to cut the football program at U of O, many students and faculty believe the same should be true for debate.
Trond Jacobson, Director of forensics and university forum, and senior instructor for Information Science within the Clarks honor college and students, Dylan Kussman-Carter and Lorelei Sassenfeld, thanks to all three of you for coming on and talking with us.
ALL: Glad to be here.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Trond, we're going to start with you give us sort of the update on what's happening with the forensics program and specifically around the teams like mock trial and the debate team at the University of Oregon.
TROND JACOBSEN: So, Oregon forensics has a really long and proud history at the University of Oregon, and right now we have a great many students competing in mock trial, which is a simulated trial where they prepare arguments and make legal claims and advocacy and opening statements, interaction with witnesses, closing statements, that kind of thing. Learn legal procedure, and then debate teams, debate propositions of great social value, and they advocate for policy changes or advocate against policy changes. In this case, the topic for this year is labor law reform. So, students advocate for one or another different change in American labor law, or oppose those changes in labor law. So here's what's happened. Oregon forensics has this long history, and we were preparing for another great year for the many students in the program. Planned a lot of tournaments in the fall, and hope we're planning to host some tournaments in the fall, and then earlier this month, in a meeting designed to update the Dean of the Honors College about our advanced planning for this year in both mock trial and debate, I learned that it was her intention to end Honors College support for The program effectively shut the forensics program as a department, which is a particular kind of entity on campus that receives a great deal of support from the Associated Student Union, that is a students of the University of Oregon through the democratic allocation of I fees, and that she would also be, in due course, eliminating my position as well. But the big concern is the impact on the students in the program, who really kind of, as I've observed and as they've shared with me, and is entirely predictable, given the lateness of this decision, really kind of threw their season this year into a great deal of turmoil.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Is this a somewhat fluid situation? It's not necessarily etched in stone; it could somehow survive. And there might be further discussion that can happen?
TROND JACOBSEN: Absolutely and perhaps the students can speak a little bit too. So we're kind of pursuing a number of tracks. Yes, this decision can be reversed. All it requires is for the university to conclude we think, reasonably, that forensics is worth preserving in the in the form that it has enjoyed for decades, at least going back to the 1940s that is based in an institutional home supported by the broader resources of the University of Oregon, overseen by a dedicated, passionate forensics professional, perhaps not me, But somebody like me who cares to help build the programs, and that's what we think this university will choose for our students this time.
MICHAEL DUNNE: And let's talk to those students. We have two of them with us. Let's start with let's start with you, Lorelei, in terms of, kind of explain the debate team to us, but really, probably more importantly, talk about its importance to you as well as your colleagues.
LORELEI SASSENFELD: So, I am a member of the University of Oregon's card debate team. It's collegiate advocacy and research debate, and I'm currently a sophomore in college. It's my second year at the University of Oregon. And of course, in our debate club, as the trend was saying a little bit we do. A kind of policy-based advocacy for large social change this year is about labor law reform, which is a really interesting topic that is very prevalent in today's society, especially considering at the U of O, we recently had faculty stress. Sorry, we had a faculty strike. We had our student workers striking. Work. Policy is incredibly important, and I think that debate definitely gives you a platform that is necessary in times like this. John was mentioning how there's a bit of political turmoil. Absolutely, the point of debate is to provide that civil space for students to still discuss these issues, to try and find a solution. The whole goal of card debate is to try and have more of a conversation about what would work the best so we can actually try to solve the issues at hand. And, I mean, I just find it beautiful that there's a space for that. It's a space where you're okay to be incorrect. Sometimes it's okay to not know all the facts, because your opponents, your partner, they're going to be there for you to explain to you, hey, like this would work a little better. And you get a whole multi-faceted view. It's a very beautiful program. I mean, debate is very sincere to me. I started debating a little bit late in my high school career. I started in my junior year of high school, and for me, the decision to join debate was not a super easy one, a fun fact about me. I've always had a fear of public speaking, and going to join the debate was kind of a big, scary move. The person who did inspire me to join was a coach. We had our coach, who also was our, like, public speaking teacher, and she watched my performances for class that were graded, and she suggested that I join the debate team. And she was the real inspiration for me to actually join. She teaches down in Texas, where debate is huge. And after she had kind of argued with me, until I decided to go to a tournament after the first one, I really loved it. I mean, I found so much more than just a place for me to state a case. I found a strong community. And I mean, that's one of the reasons I decided to go to the University of Oregon. I know when considering schools, there were a few factors I was looking into, but one of the main ones was, do they have a strong forensics program? And I knew going into this that the University of Oregon, we'd invented policy debate, we were working on a new kind of form of debate, and we have a long history of forensics at the school. I truly think that if the University of Oregon did not have forensics when I applied, I would not be attending this school. For me, as an out of state student, moving all the way across the country to go to university is horrifying. You don't know if you're losing all your friends. You don't know if the culture up there is going to match, but I knew when I applied to the University of Oregon, knowing that they had a forensics program, I knew that at the very least I was going to find a strong community where I could feel free to discuss my ideals, and I'd at least have like a place to start on campus. And that's honestly what Oregon forensics was for me. And I love Oregon forensics. I mean, I'm going to be on the board for it this year, hopefully when we figure out the student. But it's truly been an amazing opportunity. I have nothing but positive things to say about the program.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Dylan, talk about mock trial, kind of the same question about what it means to you.
DYLAN KUSSMAN-CARTER: So, for me, I had always been a little bit interested in, like, law, politics, that realm, but I had never really taken a big step or really gotten involved with anything law related. And in high school, my friend, it was actually my senior year of high school, my friend convinced me to join our mock trial team, and I just, like, completely fell in love. I've played sports for a lot of my life, but like, joining mock trials and really being a part of I was like, wow. Like, this is my like, this is like, what I'm passionate about. Like, as much as I like sports like this is an activity that I really felt extremely, extremely passionate about, and it supported my, like, career goals. Part of why I want to become a lawyer is how much I've enjoyed mock trials, and how positive of an experience in mock trials I've had. And, yeah, like at Oregon, this team has really, it's really given me, like, a lot of other peers who also want to be a lawyer, who also want to pursue big things, who and it definitely has helped me, like, find my people at Oregon. The sense of community has just been incredible. It allows me to, like, surround myself with just other very similar people to me, and it's really like the reason I want to, like, I don't think I would be pursuing law as strongly as I can if I had never done mock trials. And it really just means a lot to me. It's such a big part of my life right now. Like all my friends are like, Geez, it's almost like an extra class with just like, how much you're. Doing, but I love it. I know how many people in the program also love it, and we're all busy too, like I work. I know a bunch of other people on our team work have jobs, and yet it's kind of this extra workload that we take on because it's just such a rewarding experience. And again, like Lorelei said, I didn't come here specifically for a mock trial, but there were a bunch of other schools. There was actually an in-state school that was really high up on my list that initially I was considering over Oregon, but I took it off my list because they did not have a mock trial team. So mock trial was like going to a college that had a mock trial team was a requirement for me. If Oregon didn't have a mock trial team, I probably, I can say I definitely would not have, can't have come to Oregon had we not had a mock trial team.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Trond, I'm going to go back to you is maybe a little bit to unpack here. But you know, obviously the University of Oregon is known for many things, but one of the things it is known for is athletics, specifically, something like football, of which competition with other major universities around the country is incredibly important. And I want to ask you about that, because obviously, if there was a surprise announcement to drop the football team, I think there'd be rioting in the streets and so on and so forth. But talk about that in terms of the status of the university to have a forensics program, to have something that can pit these wonderful students that we're getting to know, to pit them against other great students in their discipline, in other major universities.
TROND JACOBSEN: Well, thank you for the opportunity to talk about some of the great impact and prestige that the forensics program has brought to the university. I'm very familiar with this history, so I'll try and keep it somewhat succinct. Sure, it's really fair to say, Michael, that forensics has played a bigger role at the University of Oregon than it has at any other public university. And the University of Oregon has played a bigger role in the history of national and international forensics competition than any other public university has, and I know that that's a strong claim, but I can substantiate that pretty quickly. And we've also had six national championships, which as much as I love Oregon football, I watch every game religiously. That is a few more than football has earned. And in fact, in the early 1890s sorry, late 1890s and early 1900s forensics activities on campus were so popular that they made money selling tickets, and used some of those proceeds to help subsidize travel for the football team in its early years, when it wasn't quite as successful as we all celebrate today. Yes, so Oregon's impact in forensics has been tremendous. It was the very first group formed on campus and those debating in literary societies that were arguing and engaging in simulated trials, essentially founded the library here and the first student newspaper. The University of Oregon participated in one of perhaps the first intercollegiate debate against Albany college in the early 1890s the first radio debate involved the University of California, Berkeley and the University of Oregon, and we had 2500 people buying tickets to watch Oregon beat the University of Oxford on the campus here in Eugene back in 1924 the form of debate dominant in the United States over the last 100 years, what began as Oregon cross examination debate, we know it now as policy debate, and the first world debate tour was by three University of Oregon students. I've just published an article about this. 1927-1928 traveled all the way around the world. 17 countries deliberated and gave speeches and engaged in debates in 17 countries, in front of 75,000 people, and really was one of the first ways in which the university of Oregon's name crossed people's lips because of the wrapped media coverage everywhere this team went all around the world, the first televised debate involved the University of Oregon and USC. And as I mentioned earlier, we were a co-founder of this new form of research-based debate, which is the only form of college debate that's currently growing in a mock trial. This is a newer activity, but Oregon's really risen to a great state of prominence. I think it's fair to say we are the strongest mock trial program in the Pacific Northwest. We've gone to Nationals three times in 13 years, which is a big accomplishment for a new program, including the last two years we've made it to Nationals, which means we're among the top 50 programs out of roughly 700 across the country.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Lorelei, the last word to you.
LORELEI SASSENFELD: Okay, so if we're trying to argue in favor of Ori forensic staying, there's a multitude of reasons. I would suggest that it stays. One day we can just start with the university's mission statement. The university's mission statement believes that as a community of scholars, we're supposed to help individuals question critically, think logically, reason effectively and communicate clearly, all of which are main tenets of debate and mock trial as well. So Oregon forensics helps the university carry out its mission statement by canceling that they're taking away a large opportunity for students to perform as such, even beyond that, things that I haven't mentioned before and things that Dylan hasn't mentioned, debate and mock trial forensics as a whole, has historically served as a large space for underrepresented communities, I know, specifically in card debate, collegiate advocacy, research debate, the one that we do here in card debate. We focus a lot on multi-faceted abuse. We want to see a multi-cultural representation. The idea of cutting forensics cuts both the voice of nontraditional students, of marginalized students, because it doesn't even allow them a place at the table in political discussion.
MICHAEL DUNNE: She's Lorelei Sassenfield, a member of the University of Oregon debate team, and Dylan Kussman-Carter part of the mock trial, and then the person over it all, Professor Trond Jacobson, thank you all so much for for coming on and talking about this, this important program.
ALL: Thanks, Michael. Thank you so much, Michael. We really appreciate it.
MICHAEL DUNNE: That's the show for today. All episodes of Oregon On The Record are available as a podcast at KLCC.org. Tomorrow, on the show, we dive into two first amendment stories. One everyone has heard of, involving Jimmy Kimmel, and the other is a bit more obscure, but involves an Oregon company. I'm Michael Dunne, host of Oregon On The Record. Thanks for listening.
