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MICHAEL DUNNE: I'm Michael Dunne. Oregon's largest city is a lot of things, weird, quirky, liberal and even scruffy, but to one man who just happens to be the most powerful person in the world, Portland is a crime riddled hellscape, and so President Trump has threatened and now authorized the National Guard to go into Portland to quell protests that he seems to think have completely taken over the city. Of course, local leaders on the ground say that the President is completely wrong and that no such intervention is needed. Today on the show, we checked in on the Rose City with the editor in chief of the Oregon capital Chronicle, and got the latest on what's happening to our north. Then we'll finish the show talking to our colleague at OPB about how local officials are seeing civil rights violations, not by protesters, but by federal ice officials. Julia Shumway, Editor in Chief of the Oregon Capitol Chronicle, thanks so much for coming on and talking with us.
JULIA SHUMWAY: Yeah, thanks for having me.
MICHAEL DUNNE: I know you've been looking at this a lot, and so I'd love it if you could give our listeners kind of a go back a little bit and tell us how we got here to where, you know, the National Guard has been declared coming to Portland.
JULIA SHUMWAY: Yeah. So, this is something that the City of Portland and the state of Oregon have kind of been preparing for months now, Attorney General Dan Rayfield, who is sued over the National Guard, coming to Portland, even said that he was starting to think about this as soon as President Trump took office in January, and we started to see more Signs. In recent months, we had a Cabinet meeting where former Oregon Congresswoman Lori Chavez de Riemer, now Trump's Secretary of Labor, urged him to send troops here. When we saw this happening in LA and Washington, DC, I think Portland was starting to prepare. We know that our president gets a lot of his news from a news channel that has really enjoyed showing footage of protests in Oregon in 2020 and he's under the impression that Portland is a war zone because of what he watches.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Yeah, in fact, I know it's been sort of chronicled that in some sort of a conversation with Governor Kotek, he sort of said something along the lines of, what are you telling me it's different from what I'm seeing on TV?
JULIA SHUMWAY: Yes, yes. And he's brought that up a couple times in comments he's made. He's asked the governor if the tapes are lying to him, and I think she has tried to explain that whatever he's seeing on TV is not what people in Portland are seeing when they go about their daily business.
MICHAEL DUNNE: What have officials told you, and start from at the city level, but then also up to the governor's office and our federal delegation? What has been, has there been a unified voice saying that this is not necessary?
JULIA SHUMWAY: Absolutely, or, I'd say mostly unified. I think we definitely have should recognize that our city officials are and our state level elected officials are majority Democrats, and they have been very strongly unified in saying the national guard does not need to come here, and also in telling Portlanders and Oregonians NOT TO TAKE THE BAIT, they're trying really hard to tell people like you may not be happy with what the federal government is doing, but do not respond with violence or give them any reason to feel like they should come here. But then you also do have, like, a number of Republican elected officials in the state. I believe we saw former House Majority Leader Christine Drazan, who, of course, ran against Governor Kotak a few years ago for governor, saying that she welcomed the National Guard coming to Portland. You had, of course, labor secretary Chavez de Riemer, calling for Trump to send troops out here and really welcoming that decision. These are people who have said for years that Portland is in trouble, and they like that. They have a president who agrees with them now.
MICHAEL DUNNE: So, as I understand it, there have been some protests outside of ice facilities or whatnot in Portland, but that even those protests, it's, it's almost been comical, if you could put that in terms of, their overall numbers, as well as sort of the veracity of protests. Is that correct? Is this being kind of, you know, trying to whip something up that really hasn't existed?
JULIA SHUMWAY: Yeah. So, we've seen pretty consistently protests happening every week outside the ice facility. But for the most part, these protests have been fairly small. We had a capitol chronicle columnist who went down there one day a few weeks ago, and his description was talking to a few dozen people from the Society of Friends, Quakers, who are just standing out there, kind of quietly protesting during the day. We do know that things have gotten a little more heated at night, some nights with, I believe, up to 26 total arrests for arson and other related issues, but that those are 26 charges out of months of demonstrations and some of the more recent protests, which which have been larger since the Trump administration announced they were sending troops in here have have had more people. But I think people might have seen some kind of comical videos. You've got people doing the cha-cha slide and a guy dressed up in a chicken costume. These aren't, these aren't violent protests.
MICHAEL DUNNE: What are you seeing there? Because, as I understand it, the troops aren't there yet. Is that correct?
JULIA SHUMWAY: That's correct. And I should preface this by saying I'm also not in Portland. I'm based out of Salem so I'm counting on my reporter who works in Portland, but there are not troops on the ground yet. There have been complaints in the area over military helicopters flying over and just making a lot of noise at night as they circle around this building. We do know from hearing from the Oregon National Guard, which is working on mobilizing troops. Part of this order by the Trump administration, if it goes forward, is that these troops would be placed under command of the federal government. So right now, the Oregon National Guard is just preparing people, making sure they're fully trained and in crowd control, making sure that they've got all their proper forms signed, and they're eligible to go and be deployed. But that probably won't happen until about sometime, sometime later in October, maybe mid-October, after they managed to get training done. Sure.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Do you have an idea of what the troop strength will be about how many National Guard troops would potentially, if it all gets the green light come to Portland?
JULIA SHUMWAY: The orders were for about 200 people, and so that would be two classes of the Oregon National Guard.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Okay, I know that obviously the Trump administration has sent troops to various cities. It started in Washington, DC, of which there's a clear legal line that he could do that in the district. But of course, in states, the governor has control over the National Guard. Do you have any updates on where that stands legally? Are there still legal challenges that haven't been fully played out as to whether he could even do something like this in Oregon, even though he's done it in Illinois and Chicago.
JULIA SHUMWAY: Yes, so within hours of the President or Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth issuing his order saying that the troops would be federalized, the Oregon Attorney General's office was in court in Portland, they filed a lawsuit that essentially says, like, this is the President completely going out of bounds. This is not something that he has the authority to do. They also filed as part of that broader lawsuit, a motion for a temporary restraining order, and there were arguments on that restraining order Friday in district court in Portland, and despite the decision on the restraining order, the rest of the case will continue to move forward. This may take weeks or months, even longer, for the district judge to make a full ruling on this and then see the potential for appeals from either side, depending on how that case moves forward. So it is entirely possible that we don't see troops on the ground anytime soon. It's also entirely possible that they're here anyway. We'll just have to wait and see.
MICHAEL DUNNE: As best you know, can Governor Kotek, does she have any other levers that she could pull with? With regard to this. I guess what I'm asking is because there is an absolutely clear line, which shows you know the Oregon National Guard is Governor Kotex Army, for lack of a better phrase, and not President Trump's. But is there anything other than the lawsuits that you've just articulated? Is there anything else that a governor can do to try and stop this from happening?
JULIA SHUMWAY: So, Governor Kotek has been trying very hard to talk to President Trump and to try to convince him that this is not the right decision to make, that Oregon has everything under control. We talked earlier about how they had their conversation, where he said that she doesn't have things under control on the ground that it looks like it's World War Two on these streets, so she's not been successful so far in convincing him of anything. And while the governor is Commander in Chief of the National Guard, there is a section of a federal law that does allow a president to assume control in emergency circumstances. And I think part of where they're at now is just counting on the courts to weigh in and say whether these are, these are emergency circumstances or not.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Okay, talking about, you know, you've got some folks on the ground there in Portland, I'd love to hear from you what they're telling you about the mood on the street. I imagine they've had an opportunity to not only talk to elected leaders and those in seats of power, but as best you can tell, what is the mood from the average person there in Portland about this potential invasion?
JULIA SHUMWAY: For lack of a better phrase, I think there's a level of kind of disbelief and skepticism, just to put things in perspective, this, this announcement we got from the President came down on a Saturday morning, when you had Portlanders out going for hikes in their city parks and going to Saturday markets, you had the city's parks and rec department handing out free trees for people to plant in their in their yards. None of this, none of this is what would be happening in a war zone. So, I think there's a level of just absolute confusion. People looking around this city on a beautiful fall day and trying to understand why someone would think that their city is in trouble.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Yeah, could this be something where there's troops in Portland for, you know, months and months and months, and that it could be a base of operation where troops could also be sent to places like Bend or Eugene or Springfield because of similar type of protests that again on a limited basis, but still catching The president's eye in Portland?
JULIA SHUMWAY: So, we did over this past week when, when President Trump and Secretary Hegseth were talking with generals at a gathering near DC, he did talk about how he wanted to use democratic cities as a training ground for troops. We haven't had a lot of elaboration on that. But in practice, long or long-standing tradition and rules would tell you that federal troops have a pretty limited or agents of the federal government have a pretty limited area in which they can practice.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Julia Shumway, the editor in chief at the Oregon capital chronicle does a great job up there. Thank you so much for spending some time with us and talking about what's going on in Portland and the state in general.
JULIA SHUMWAY: Thank you.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Now, let's stay in Portland, but switch gears by talking to our colleague at OPB about how local officials are alleging civil rights violations perpetrated by federal ICE agents. Alex Zielinski, the Portland City Hall reporter with Oregon Public Broadcasting, thanks so much for coming on and talking with us.
ALEX ZIELINSKI: Thanks for having me.
MICHAEL DUNNE: I enjoyed the piece you produced. The title on your website, “Portland accuses Federal officers of violating demonstrators’ constitutional rights.” Just tell our listeners you know what you found, what your story was about?
ALEX ZIELINSKI: Yeah. So, I'll start by backing up a little bit. So last Friday, the US Justice Department civil right division announced that it was investigating Portland and its police for a couple of reasons. First, the way it treated a couple of right-wing media figures at demonstrations outside the city's Immigration and Customs Enforcement building, and then also for its enforcement of zoning laws that could threaten ISIS ability to operate out of that South Portland building and so on. On Monday, Portland City Attorney Robert Taylor responded to this, this threat of investigation. And basically said, you know that if the federal government truly cared about civil rights and wanted to investigate any, you know, harm to folks outside the facility, it should be looking at the way its federal officers are treating protesters outside that building. You know, he accused the federal law enforcement officers for giving special treatment and access to some right-wing social media influencers on the ground while firing tear gas and flash bang grenades at the feet of those who are protesting ice and other journalists who are trying to document the protests in a more objective way.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Yeah, and I noticed, and I'll use my verbal quotations to kind of call this out, that city attorney Robert Taylor is accused of “viewpoint discrimination.” Can you define that as best you can?
ALEX ZIELINSKI: It's interesting because it's a term that came from the US Justice Department's letter, they accused the city of having viewpoint discrimination for a couple the ways they treated a couple of right-wing media figures that I mentioned earlier. One was the arrest of a conservative kind of personality, a man named Nick Soter, and then also an incident where journalists from this right-wing media outlet called the post millennial was assaulted by a demonstrator and didn't seem to get a quick response from police. And so basically, what the Department of Justice is saying is, hey, in these two examples, it looks like you are not respecting the rights of people based on their political views. And then on the flip side, you know, Robert Taylor responds saying, Actually, I think it's you guys who are doing that because the way that you're giving kind of special privilege and special access to the ice facility to folks on the right or who are favorable of the Trump administration, and not to really anyone else who's been asking while, you know, shooting tear gas at folks who are opposed to the way ice has been acting. That seems like viewpoint discrimination. You know, it's a term that I haven't heard thrown around that often, but it's very central to this conversation.
MICHAEL DUNNE: As I understand it, reading your piece, this is right now just a letter from the city attorney. But is it possible that the city attorney, first of all, can, and might they actually bring legal action against the federal government on this issue?
ALEX ZIELINSKI: Well, what's interesting is, I think, you know, it's worth noting, I guess, the backdrop here of Portland's years long settlement agreement with the Justice Department that came out of a lawsuit from the federal government, I think, in 2014 which accused Portland Police of using disproportionate force against people with a mental illness. And that settlement that came from it came with a lot of guidelines around how Portland police must follow when using force, like using crowd control munitions against folks or even shooting using a deadly weapon. And what's odd is that the Justice Department kind of mentioned the settlement in their letter last week, saying that their investigation into how Portland Police is acting right now could impact this settlement, but it's really not clear how that could relate. So, it was kind of this empty threat, and you know, Taylor, the city attorney, says as much in his letter yesterday, saying it, you know, would be, quote, inappropriate and a really blatant way to subvert the justice system to just score political points. So I do see, I don't see a standalone legal action coming out of this, but I do see it impacting, kind of the ongoing conversations around this long, long term settlement that the city has with the Department of Justice, which has just, you know, gone on for years and years and kind of on the back of Portland.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Alex, my last question for you is, you're there, you're in Portland, and I know that you've seen some of these protests and stuff. I would love to just get a first person view of what you see when you go to these protests. And I don't know, have you? Have you seen viewpoint discrimination? I guess just if you could provide us, you know, again, your perspective on all this?
ALEX ZIELINSKI: Sure. Yeah, so I've been down at the ice facility and during these protests that kind of start middle of the day, but have gone late into the night. And it's interesting. It's kind of this wave of action that centers around vehicles leaving and coming into the gated ice facilities driveway and so kind of, whenever one of those cars is coming in or leaving, Federal officers’ kind of push the crowd out of the street to make sure these folks can come in. And that's kind of the moment of these flash points where you see, you see folks in the, you know, Federal officers in the roof of the ice building shooting pepper balls, kind of like, you know, airsoft guns with the pepper spray balls in them at the feet of protesters who might inch, you know, an inch or two over the line from the public sidewalk into the federal property that the big, one of the main arrests here that we're seeing of anyone who's protesting is just for trespassing, which is quite simply, just, you know, a few inches onto this federal driveway, and it looks like it's interesting, because we're not seeing any clear provocation from protesters that is leading to arrest. You know, it's kind of the normal, you know, you're hearing shouting and chanting and people kind of yelling and heckling the ice protest or the ICE officers, but not seeing a ton of violence in any sense. I think a lot of the arrests that we've noted are people fighting back when they're getting arrested for potentially trespassing, and their response to being grabbed by a federal officer is categorized as an assault on a Federal officer in terms of viewpoint discrimination. I mean, we have seen a number of these kinds of right-wing social media live streamers and influencers getting access to the ice building that, you know, we haven't.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Well, it's fascinating what's happening. And really appreciate you giving us that bird's eye view and stay safe out there. I know this can be a volatile situation. Alex Zielinski, she is the City Hall reporter for Portland, for Oregon Public Broadcasting, again. Thanks so much for your perspective.
ALEX ZIELINSKI: Thank you.
MICHAEL DUNNE: That's the show for today. All episodes of Oregon On The Record are available as a podcast at KLCC.org. Tomorrow on the show, we talk with the Lane County Fire Authority about the need for a levy to fund vital services. I'm Michael Dunne, host of Oregon On The Record, Thanks for listening.
