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MICHAEL DUNNE: I’m Michael Dunne. It will surprise absolutely no one that Amazon is an enormous company that relies on massive fulfillment centers to serve customers. What may surprise some people is that Amazon is planning to build such a facility right here in Eugene—surprising because, according to reporting, the company kept those plans under wraps and didn’t even use its own name to secure the land.
Today on the show, you’ll hear from a small group of people who believe this Amazon facility would be bad news for Eugene and want to keep the company out of the community. Then, in the second half of the show, we’ll hear from an Oregon State University researcher about how the return of wolves to Yellowstone is changing the behavior of their chief rival, the cougar.
Today, we’re speaking with that small group opposing Amazon’s plans: Ruth Wren with the Say No to Amazon campaign and Indivisible Eugene-Springfield, and JoJo Breslin with the Scramazon organization. Thanks to you both for coming in.
BOTH: Thanks so much for having us.
MICHAEL DUNNE: JoJo, I’ll start with you. This new Amazon retail—or e-commerce—center: what concerns do you have about it?
JOJO BRESLIN: For us, we see our major concerns with Amazon being that, one, it’s a company whose values don’t align with the ones that we hold in the community here in Eugene. Ultimately, we also feel that it will have a negative impact on the community in a more economic sense.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Ruth, expand upon that. What are some of the things that what they’re proposing might do negatively to our community?
RUTH WREN: Well, for one thing, Amazon promises good jobs. However, the way their strategy is, they build the warehouse, and there are maybe some jobs during the construction of the warehouse, but their labor force is actually going to be replaced by 2030 by robots and AI. And you can read about that on their website. They’re very pleased with this strategy, but it will reduce jobs by three quarters.
Editor's Note: While KLCC couldn't verify the claim that Amazon's website details plans to reduce its workforce by 75% through automation, there has been media reporting on internal Amazon strategy documents that suggest that the company is exploring automation that could cover a large share of its operations and potentially reduce the need for hiring hundreds of thousands of workers over the next decade. However, Amazon has publicly denied that these documents reflect its overall hiring strategy and continues to hire in many areas.
MICHAEL DUNNE: JoJo, Amazon is a huge company. You’re a small grassroots organization. How has it been going in terms of getting the message out and helping people understand your cause?
JOJO BRESLIN: You’re absolutely right—Amazon is a huge organization, and part of that is their experience doing similar developments in other communities. Part of their strategy here in Eugene was to keep it under wraps. They were very secretive, even about being known as the developers, and had brokers and landowners sign NDAs so no one would know they were coming. We felt it was necessary to step up and, even though we’re a small collective, stand up for the community’s values and make as much noise as we can.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Ruth, how did you even find out this facility was coming? It seemed to take some time for people to understand what was happening.
RUTH WREN: Like a lot of people, I used Amazon Prime a lot, especially during COVID, and didn’t really think it through. Then in February, I read an article in Eugene Weekly—Christian Wihtol’s “Brick and Mortar” column—and he explained the details about the NDAs and the architectural plans. They were really making an effort to keep this quiet, but all of the details lined up with Amazon’s typical warehouse. That piqued my interest, and I started doing more research. The more I learned about how Amazon operates in other communities, and what’s promised versus what actually happens, the clearer it became that instead of helping the local economy, it undermines it.
MICHAEL DUNNE: JoJo, when you talk to people who are just learning about this, what kind of feedback do you get?
JOJO BRESLIN: That’s the typical response. I talk to folks every day, and when I tell them there’s an Amazon distribution center coming, they’re surprised and ask if it’s really happening. When they learn that permits are already in place and that it’s a 320,000-square-foot facility, people say they wish they’d known earlier or ask what they can do now. The reality is that we’re well past the point where public input should have happened in many areas.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Ruth, Indivisible Eugene-Springfield is part of a national organization. Are you aware of other communities where Amazon facilities have been turned away?
RUTH WREN: Yes. In Hayward, California, a facility was canceled over permitting issues. In West Covina, a warehouse was canceled due to union protests and community opposition. And in Sonoma County, Amazon backed out when the county required more traffic and environmental studies. So it can work.
MICHAEL DUNNE: JoJo, have you had any dialogue with city officials or other decision-makers?
JOJO BRESLIN: I wouldn’t say it’s been much of a dialogue. We’ve mostly encountered deflection. City council points us to the planning commission, and the planning commission points us back to city council. There’s a lot of obfuscation around responsibility, and it feels like a reluctance to take up the issue.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Ruth, some people say Amazon creates jobs, even if they’re temporary. How do you respond?
RUTH WREN: People may think it will bring good jobs that help the economy, but it doesn’t deliver on that. Amazon undercharges compared to what local businesses can offer, which hurts the local economy. Amazon isn’t coming here to bring us anything, no matter what the PR says. I believe they’re coming because they like a direct corridor to I-5 and proximity to an airport.
MICHAEL DUNNE: JoJo, go ahead.
JOJO BRESLIN: Amazon’s fleet also takes work away from USPS, UPS, and FedEx—unionized workers. On top of that, these are low-wage jobs with workplace safety and environmental concerns. It creates a race to the bottom that’s a disservice to the community.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Ruth, if listeners want to get involved, what can they do?
RUTH WREN: We encourage people to come to the city council meeting. The next one is January 26 at 7:30 p.m., and people should arrive by 7 p.m. to sign up to comment. We also have meetings people can attend, and they can find information on the Indivisible Eugene-Springfield website.
MICHAEL DUNNE: JoJo, last word.
JOJO BRESLIN: People should seek out reporting on this issue and keep showing up. Email city councilors, county commissioners, the city manager, and the mayor. Applying political pressure matters.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Ruth Wren with the Say No to Amazon campaign and Indivisible Eugene-Springfield, and JoJo Breslin with Scramazon—thank you both for coming in.
BOTH: Thank you so much, Michael. Thanks for having us.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Now let’s turn to nature’s largest dogs and cats—wolves and cougars—and how they interact in one of the world’s most famous natural laboratories, Yellowstone National Park. Joining us is Wesley Binder, a doctoral student at Oregon State University. Wesley, thanks for being here.
WES BINDER: Thanks for having me, Michael.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Give us the 30,000-foot view of what your study found.
WES BINDER: We examined wolf–cougar interactions using nearly a decade of GPS and predation data, which is rare for two large carnivores in the same ecosystem. We found that wolves stealing cougar kills accounts for almost half of their interactions, and that these interactions depend heavily on cougar diet. When cougars kill large prey like elk—which take longer to consume—interactions are more likely. When they kill smaller prey like deer, they eat more quickly, reducing the chance of wolves showing up. In short, these interactions are driven by cougar diet, with cougars being the subordinate predator.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Is this new behavior related to the reintroduction of wolves, or something that’s been happening for thousands of years?
WES BINDER: We believe these interactions have been occurring for thousands of years. Cougars evolved alongside wolves. What’s changed is how humans have managed wildlife over the past century. Populations of wolves, cougars, elk, and bison have fluctuated dramatically, and we’re only beginning to understand how these ecosystems function when all these species are present.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Many people don’t realize how often predators steal from each other. Is that simply efficiency?
WES BINDER: Exactly. Hunting is difficult and risky. If you’re dominant and another carnivore already has a kill, stealing it is far more efficient than hunting yourself.
MICHAEL DUNNE: How do cougars avoid wolves?
WES BINDER: Although a cougar might win a one-on-one encounter, wolves hunt in packs—often around ten animals in Yellowstone. Previous research shows cougars adapt by selecting rugged, forested terrain that allows escape. Our study also shows that switching prey from elk to deer reduces interactions, since wolves are less likely to locate cougars at smaller carcasses.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Is it beneficial overall to have both species thriving?
WES BINDER: It can be. A diverse landscape and prey base allow wolves and cougars to coexist. Yellowstone is a great example, with multiple large carnivores and eight species of large herbivores. These dynamics can influence the entire food web.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Does this benefit vegetation as well?
WES BINDER: Potentially. This is where the idea of trophic cascades comes in, though the science is still debated. What we know is that these systems evolved with large carnivores, and we’re still learning how their return affects ecosystems.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Could similar dynamics occur in Oregon as wolves return?
WES BINDER: Yes. In flatter, open areas, cougars may be more sensitive to wolves, but Oregon has extensive rugged habitat like the Cascades and Wallowas that favor cougars. Overall, we expect coexistence, though some overlap areas will need close monitoring.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Fascinating work. Wesley Binder, doctoral student at Oregon State University—thanks for joining us.
WES BINDER: Thanks so much, Michael.
