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MICHAEL DUNNE: I'm Michael Dunne. It was, in many ways, a seismic event in the nation, and its ground zero was right here in Oregon, the legalization of psilocybin for adults, in many ways, following along the path first trod by the cannabis industry, Oregon was going to become the epicenter of psychedelic therapy. So, how's it going? Some two years from today, on the show, you'll hear a conversation with one of the leading providers in the state and one with the most clients. In many ways, it's been a truly mixed bag of success and challenge. Yes, this company is growing, but many more have failed, and the regulatory environment is still evolving, and for some presents a tangled web of confusion. It's a nascent industry with nascent industry problems. Andreas met the founder and chief operating officer for Satya therapeutics, Thanks so much for coming on and talking with us.
ANDREAS MET: That's me.
MICHAEL DUNNE: I know you're one of the state's largest, leading psilocybin service centers and manufacturers. You've been operating now for a while in the still new industry of psilocybin services in Oregon. How have things been going?
ANDREAS MET: That's a good question. It's very challenging. It's a challenging business. We do run the service center. We run the manufacturing. We're relicensing the manufacturing right now, and I'm also a facilitator as well. I've seen over 120 clients myself, so I kind of wear multiple hats. The business has been really difficult. There are not enough clients coming to Oregon for all the service centers, so we basically break-even month to month more or less. And it's challenging because, you know, same story, as everyone else has said to date, is there's high licensing fees. Insurance is very expensive, like, we're one of the only service centers that actually has insurance for facilitators at practice here, but that's expensive. And then the regulations can, at times, be, you know, difficult. They're, they're kind of, you know, clunky at times. So, it's making the experience a little bit more difficult to administer to clients. But, you know, we're very happy with where we're at. We've just seen our 1,000th client this week, which is a huge milestone, so we're excited about that. But overall, I think if you ask anybody in industry, it's a very difficult industry.
MICHAEL DUNNE: I wanted to ask, in terms of the clients that you see, how many come from inside Oregon, and how many are people who come from other states to avail themselves to your services?
ANDREAS MET: You know this is a rough estimate, because we don't analyze the data. We're not permitted to talk about any data that's deidentified, except the total client counts. So, I'm going to just give you an estimate. I'd say 90% of the people that come and visit us are from outside of Oregon.
MICHAEL DUNNE: And of course, you're based in Ashland, so you're right up against the California border. I would imagine that is quite a strategic advantage for you, isn't it? Because obviously, imagine, with such a big state as California, it's pretty easy for folks to come up and see you.
ANDREAS MET: Yes, that's true for the people in California, if they don't have to fly, it's not that much further to fly to Portland than to Medford. The issue is that most people that come from outside of the state come from east of the Rockies, and so they're taking a two-segment flight to get to us. And so, Portland actually has the advantage, because it's a one segment flight for more locations in the country. And also, California has a vibrant gray market business psilocybin therapy. So, the gray market is a really big competitor with our service model. And so, it is an advantage for people in Northern California. But you know, ultimately, it's better to be in Portland than it is to be in Ashland. People have to travel longer to get to us.
MICHAEL DUNNE: But as you mentioned, you know, you've had your one thousandth client. What do you attribute your success to?
ANDREAS MET: So, we have a kind of a multi-pronged approach that's helped us build our brand and our reputation, and the most important one is we've always had striving to be accessible to people from all walks of life, not just really wealthy people. People, and so we've always had lower prices. And so right now you can come to visit us, and for between $1,001 - $1,250 you can have an all-inclusive journey. So that includes the preparation sessions, the administration sessions, integration and up to the state maximum amount of psilocybin for starting at 1000 to 1250 so that's led to, you know, prices one of the biggest factors for people coming out here and making the decision to do psilocybin services. And in our case, that lower price has led to more people coming to us. And as a result of that, that has built what I would call momentum. So, you know, 10 to 20% of the people that come visit a psilocybin Service Center are going to come back in a year. And so, we've got repeat business.
MICHAEL DUNNE: You talked about some of the challenges. I want to go into that more, especially, you know, from the regulatory environment. I mean, obviously psilocybin followed along when you know cannabis became legal. Did cannabis legalization help with the permitting process and some of the regulatory hurdles? Or is it really apples to oranges?
ANDREAS MET: In my opinion, the licensing process is very straightforward and easy to do, and cannabis was more complicated, at least in Nevada, California, Oregon and the kingdom of Lesotho, where I also operated cannabis myself. I come from the cannabis industry. I see immediately before this, so I don't think those are the things that make it more difficult. I think the issue is that many people out there have a negative view, a harmful view, of drugs from the drug war, and that probably permeates the politicians. This was a voter mandated initiative, not a legislative initiative, so I'm not sure that the state has support from a legislative standpoint. And that's part of the issue, that the regulations that are being made aren't really being driven as much by the operators of the industry, but by, you know, other people, other organizations or other entities. In fact, we've decided, as a group, there's a group of service centers and facilitators. We've started a new operation called the Psilocybin Alliance, and we're going to try to put this together to create a future for ourselves, where we, the operators, are more influential in the legislative process. Now, that's going to take a year or two, and we're probably even going to approach a ballot initiative, if necessary. Probably do both at once to further, you know, the regulatory process. So something that may fit better for the industry. I hope that makes sense.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Yeah, yeah, it does. You know, you've served 1000 clients. I'm curious, and I know, you know, you don't have definitive demographics. But can you give us sort of a snapshot of who's the typical person coming to see you?
ANDREAS MET: The clients that come and visit us are the kind of people that have some of them are just looking for self-exploration. Most of the people that come here have serious issues. That they're dealing with, such as persistent, untreatable depression. PTSD, we see many veterans, it's people with cognitive issues that have been resistant or that they can't get rid of. So, OCD, anxiety, and most of them come with means. I mean, our services are $1000 to $1,250 all inclusive. But if you think about people traveling across the country, you know, there's airfare, there's days in the hotel restaurants, many people bring significant others. So, by the time this is said and done, people might be spending three or $4,000 for the trip, and at that point, even saving, you know, the 500 or $1,000 compared to other service centers, is a worthwhile thing, which is a reason to choose Satya. But the average person that comes out here is looking for relief and, to some extent, self-exploration.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Okay, you've said you're also a facilitator. I'd love to hear you give people a sort of snapshot of what the service entails.
ANDREAS MET: So as a facilitator, what basically the process is, is people, especially if they come to Satya, they'll do an introductory call and they'll ask a bunch of questions. Most people have done 10 to 15 hours of research before they pick up the phone or write an email, so they're very well educated, but they have a lot of questions about how the process works. So, either I or my wife, who's a co-founder, will, you know, talk to the client and explain that there's an intention setting and that the process really starts with picking a facilitator. So, we believe that's a really important choice to connect with the right person, so we'll always recommend choosing from two or three people. So have intro calls with two or three facilitators, and then, you know, make your decision and go forward once, once you have a client as the facilitator, you're going to go through a series of preparation sessions that are typically conducted on Zoom because people are calling from far away. And I typically do three zoom sessions. Some people are very well prepared, and maybe they only need two. I've had clients where we've done nine hours of preparation, and it just depends on what the client, you know, wants to talk about, and it's completely non-directive. So, we're not operating in any kind of mental health capacity. We're making this non directive where we don't tell the client what to do or what to think. We give suggestions, maybe on things to consider, and we walk through the state paperwork, and it all involves real intention, setting and getting ready for what most people are going to be a completely unexpected experience. Most of the people that visit have never tried a psychedelic. Many have never even used cannabis, and so you're trying to prepare them for something that is really difficult to prepare for. How can you really know what's going to happen? I've had clients, you know, clients say you did a great job preparing me, but this was nothing that I expected. So, it's basically getting enough trust in place so that when the facilitator is in the room with the client, the client knows in the deepest of deepest hearts that the facilitator is there for their best interest, and that if a facilitator does speak during the session, that the words coming out of the facilitators mouth are the truth. Those are the two fundamental things, and that's what prep really is designed for. And I'm going to give a little bit more of my philosophy on prep. Psilocybin is known through research to foster neurogenesis and neuroplasticity. Neurogenesis being brain health and neuroplasticity being new pathways. And I believe that you can work on neurogenesis and neuroplasticity today. You can do puzzles, you can travel, you can learn new languages, new modes of thinking, as an exercise in neuroplasticity and neurogenesis. If you get good rest, eat good food, exercise, that's neurogenesis. And so that can happen in prep that can happen in integration. And psilocybin is like a turbocharger for that. And so, my approach to preparation is having people get ready for this neurogenesis, neuroplasticity event. But I always tell people, much of the integration work, which is really important, is actually the same as the prep work, which is journaling and mindfulness and those kinds of things. So, there's a lot that goes into the prep sessions, but in summary, it's establishing rapport with the client, making sure all the state paperwork and requirements are met, and then preparing the client through their intention setting, to get ready for the journey.
MICHAEL DUNNE: It's still a very new industry and, and there's still a lot that's sort of unveiling itself. I kind of wanted to hear from you, you know, what do you think the future holds for the industry? You know, will we see it continue to grow again?
ANDREAS MET: Well, I have both a positive and circumspect view at the same time. The positive view is that there are millions of people who need this, and they just don't know about it. And so, it's a real difficult time having people get awareness of this being in existence at the same time, Oregon is so challenging. Seven service centers have gone out of business, out of the initial 25 I think six manufacturers have gone out of business, out of the original Nine. I might be off by one or two on that not exact. So, this industry in Oregon has been extremely difficult. I think we're going to see more service centers go out of business, and I'm not sure that the legislative process and the rule making process that's in place is serving the needs of the industry. It's very focused on safety. It's already a very safe industry. So, Oregon, I think Is headed for a very challenging time. I know there's allegedly a huge budget shortfall in terms of what, oh, expected from license from licensing fees. Some people say it's a three and a half million-dollar shortfall, and they're considering, allegedly, because I'm not, I don't have insight into this. This is all third hand information. They're considering doubling licensing fees, which will create a vicious circle of putting more people out of business. So, in Oregon right now, I think the business is at a crossroads and needs help, and I'm not sure that the participants that are involved in running the program can provide that help right now, which is why we're starting the psilocybin Alliance. We're going to try to raise money and actually get involved so we can help, you know, push this forward and make sure that we have a viable program that can continue. Ketamine is a huge business in the United States. Psilocybin could be the same thing Colorado just started, but that seems to be going slow. It's really a matter of the end client not knowing it exists. The costs are too high for many people to afford. And I'm not sure that the states really know or have the means to support the industry the way it needs to be supported. So that's my skeptical side. But you know, the people we're getting involved in the Alliance, which is a 501, c6, organization that we're just starting, I think is going to play a big role in this.
MICHAEL DUNNE: There's been so much that's happened at the federal level on a whole host of issues that you know obviously impact so much. But I'm wondering, do you have concern that suddenly the federal government or the White House may say, No, this is, this is bad. We're going to try and take this away. And in that same question is, if, like you mentioned Colorado just starting, if other states start to get into this. I mean, what, what could those two things potentially do to the industry here in Oregon?
ANDREAS MET: I'm positive from the standpoint of both. So, from a federal standpoint, we don't know what's going to happen, but the people involved in health right now are proponents of plant medicine and natural medicine from that standpoint. And so, it's conceivable that at some point in time they could, you know, take psilocybin off of the schedule one classification, and that would be a game changer. And that would be a game changer for two reasons. It could legalize or certainly make it easier to run the business. And if they do that, it would create a huge amount of awareness as well. So, if they do anything in that direction from a federal standpoint, it can only be upside down, and I don't think they can regulate it any worse, because it's a schedule one drug, like heroin right now. Yeah, right. So, there's only upside from the Federal standpoint. And some people think that, well, you know, if other states open up, it'll compete. I believe that as states open up, it will create more awareness. And every state that starts a new program, it takes a while, and there's a huge learning curve. I mean, there's a lot of best practices and learning that you have to learn in person with clients to understand, and so they're going to be slow getting going, awareness will improve. And because Oregon was the first, and we have the most experienced people in this program in the country, in Oregon period, then people will make a choice, to some extent, in this growing business, to come to Oregon. So, I would think that the quote pie would be expanding, and then Satya within that I'm optimistic there, because we are a dominant market share player. I think we're probably 8% or 10% of the Oregon market. And so, if we can get awareness expanding throughout the country, yeah, other states will get people coming in, which is wonderful. There'll be more healing going on, but we'll get our fair share, okay? And that would be good.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Andreas, my last question for you is this: Obviously people listening right now may have never even considered psilocybin services, but they may be very curious because of some of the things you talked about, especially with people who haven't been able to find help with what they're dealing with in other fashions. What advice would you give to at least begin exploring this option?
ANDREAS MET: I think the first place to start is with the research. So, there are significant studies that have been done for many different things, alcoholism, treatment resistance, depression, end of life crisis, anxiety. There's many, many pieces of legitimate research done by places like Johns, Hopkins, Imperial College of London, Yale and show results. And there is other research that can be done. As you can see, Of the company’s developing kind of a public model, you know, compass pathways, Simon and see what their research shows, which is also that psilocybin can help. And so, start with the research. Then as you continue the research, start researching service centers. And I recommend licensed service centers with licensed facilitators. The gray market works. And, I'm not down on the gray market, but if you really want to do this in the best way possible, you'll come to a service center and then research the service centers, look at their websites, and read the Google reviews. What are people saying that have been there? And then, you know, start researching the facilitators. And so, the average person, before they pick up the phone and call, they've usually done 15 hours of research and then watch the videos and the podcasts and read the books. This is really, it can be a scary process. It can be tremendously life changing, and it can be very profound in any kind of activity that people undertake. That would be if I told you you're going to take the most difficult journey of your life for seven hours, and it's going to change your life, probably a good idea to really look into it and feel really comfortable and so do a lot of research, and then talk to people like me, or, you know owners of other service centers and see whether it fits or not. So just do your research and do your due diligence, and that the more work you do, putting into it as a potential client, the more rewarding this process can be.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Andreas Met the co-founder and chief operating officer for Satya therapeutics. Thanks so much for coming on and talking with us.
ANDREAS MET: Thank you so much, Michael.
MICHAEL DUNNE: That's the show for today. All episodes of Oregon on the record are available as a podcast at klcc.org. Tomorrow on the show, we'll check in with the city of Springfield, both on the Glenwood project and their budgeting process. A quick note, Monday, we ran a story about how U of O professors are fighting to preserve and protect the First Amendment, and we want to hear from you. What are your concerns about how the Trump administration is going after the media, and what do you want elected officials and media organizations to do about it? Send us your comments to questions@klcc.org. I'm Michael Dunn, and this has been organ on the record from KLC. From KLCC. Thanks for listening.
