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Michael Dunne: I'm Michael Dunne. In the grand scheme of things, it's an issue that one would be hard-pressed to place above war, crime or climate change in a ranking of important issues facing the United States. Yet because of politics, it's gained traction as a huge wedge issue in our society: the issue of transgender women and girls playing female sports. So much so that the Supreme Court recently weighed in and held that public institutions can keep these athletes from playing women's sports. Today on the show, you'll hear from an Oregon civil rights organization about the ruling and what it will mean for athletes of all ages who want to participate. Then, in the second part of the show, we'll talk with our own arts and culture reporter about a Eugene man who is, in some ways, the human embodiment of the Declaration of Independence. Seth Johnstone is policy and research director of Basic Rights Oregon. Seth, thanks so much for coming on and talking with us.
Seth Johnstone: Thanks for having me.
Michael Dunne: Why don't we start with this? Tell us what Basic Rights Oregon does.
Johnstone: Sure. Basic Rights Oregon has been around for about 30 years. Here in Oregon, we're a statewide nonprofit working to establish equality for LGBTQ individuals across the state.
Michael Dunne: Okay, so obviously a big ruling last week from the Supreme Court. From your perspective, what did the ruling do to transgender kids who want to play sports?
Johnstone: The court ruling was a challenging moment for us. Nationally, I think it allows bans on trans athletes to stand, but it's important to recognize that it doesn't require them in places where they weren't already proposed. In the 6-3 ruling, the court said states may be able to determine eligibility for women's and girls' sports based on what they call biological sex. But the important note for us as an organization, and for Oregon, is that there's a “may” clause, which makes clear the ruling doesn't require states to exclude trans athletes.
Michael Dunne: Okay, so what do the laws in Oregon say about transgender athletes?
Johnstone: Specifically, when it comes to our publicly funded schools, Oregon has allowed gender-expansive and trans students to participate under OSAA, the Oregon School Activities Association, whose rules let public high school students compete on athletic teams aligning with their gender identity. That's backed by the Oregon Department of Education.
Michael Dunne: Okay, obviously some who've argued in support of what the Supreme Court did say things along the lines of transgender kids playing sports creates a safety issue. What do you say to that?
Johnstone: I think we all want sports to be a fair space and for student athletes to be safe. Right now, I think politics across our country are putting women, especially young girls, at risk of demeaning questioning, invasive scrutiny and harassment, all of which can be harmful to their physical and mental health. There's no clear implementation strategy for how these exams would be done. They're invasive requests for medical information that's typically protected under HIPAA, and who would be doing these examinations hasn't been made clear. So if we're talking about safety, we're looking at a very ambiguous policy being rolled out across different states in different versions that would put a lot of cisgender and transgender young people in a very invasive position, both physically and emotionally.
Michael Dunne: Okay, here in Oregon, I don't know if you've done polling or just have a general sense: How has the issue of transgender kids' right to play sports been received? Is it popular here in Oregon? Is it something most people just shrug off? From your perspective, what's the statewide mood on this issue?
Johnstone: I think the issue wasn't a hot topic until it took hold in nearby states and we became emboldened. We have a few young people here who say these sports are why they're excited to go to school every day, and it's their passion. We've seen a few cases of high schools booing athletes who've achieved success in races around the state, in different districts. We've seen audiences get quite hostile toward young people who've simply achieved a goal they set for themselves. But I think the problems we've seen in Oregon pale in comparison to what's happening elsewhere. These girls aren't trying to cheat their way into women's sports. They're looking to play on the field as who they are, with their friends, their family and their community, in alignment with who they are outside the sports field every day. A lot of Oregonians have told us through surveys and conversations that they want people to be able to play, that teamwork is important for young people, that you build core skills in these opportunities outside the classroom, and that it's often a place where you can find yourself if you feel left out elsewhere. This is where some people find a sense of confidence. People have made clear those values matter to them, that we shouldn't exclude people from those opportunities just because of who they are.
Michael Dunne: Are you concerned, based on what happened at the Supreme Court, that other case law in the next session may try to push this even further? Are you concerned the law here in Oregon might face further scrutiny and potential threat?
Johnstone: It's been an interesting couple of years, that's for sure. Every court case is a new moment where the community steps up to protest new proposed federal rules or new cases that emerge, and we're really challenged. We have an attorney general here in the state who has filed multiple multistate lawsuits to protect our students and our health care, so I think we'll continue to see that support from our state agencies and leadership. What concerns me is the ripple effect that occurs when a ruling like this happens. You see more decisions being made at school boards and in small counties and communities, rather than those bodies paying attention to the fact that we still have a statewide rule in place. So we'll start to see an impact from this, regardless of whether we have a statewide rule that protects students' ability to play.
Michael Dunne: There's an old phrase about the camel's nose in the tent. Are you concerned that this ruling, which is specifically about transgender people playing sports, is a sign the Trump administration and the Supreme Court may go further into other aspects of life that might restrict participation from transgender people?
Johnstone: Yeah, that's right. This is an example of an attempt to push people's ability to be visible out of public space. We saw that previously with restrooms, simply being able to use the restroom while going about daily public life. Now this is focused on being able to participate in sports and be seen achieving. But we've also seen attempts to withdraw our health care and our ability to access medical clinics and have those visits reimbursed, so there's a strain on all aspects of our lives. Housing policies are being stripped back in terms of equal access to shelters. So if you look at the broad scheme of things, you'll see an attempt to push the visibility of our communities out of the spaces we belong in and should be seen in.
Michael Dunne: And then finally, on that same note: What are some things Basic Rights Oregon is doing? Where do you feel like this could become another front in this fight, so you need to provide resources and action in that direction?
Johnstone: We've stayed in close touch with our state's leadership and elected officials, providing education from the direct narrative of transgender people. A lot of the current narrative is being created by people who aren't trans themselves, so our role, as an organization led by LGBTQ individuals, is to bring the voices of our community to the elected leaders who are fighting some of these proposed rules at the federal or state legislative level, so they're fully informed by the real lived experiences of the people they're making policy around. Our role is also to bring out the parents, the children, the community members, the teachers and the teammates who care about these young people being part of these sports, so those voices aren't lost in the national rhetoric created by people who don't actually belong to this community. Our role will continue to be highlighting the real narratives rather than the ones being created about us.
Michael Dunne: Okay, Seth, my last question for you: Obviously the Supreme Court ruling is a setback for people who want to promote and advance transgender rights. Are there things happening, though, that give you optimism, whether at the state level, potential federal legislation or other actions that might help counteract this current federal narrative?
Johnstone: Yeah, I think allies are showing up all over: people with peers, family members and students in their classrooms who they've had real experiences with, who are saying they don't believe this should happen, that these rights shouldn't be taken away from this person, or that if these rights are taken from one group, they could expand and be taken from more of us. So the movement has never just been about holding on to basic access to health care. It's always been about what we lose, as a whole community, when we let one group be targeted this way and pushed out of public spaces we've had equal access to until this administration. I think the hope comes from people showing up in every corner to say, ‘I'm watching this happen to your community, and I don't want to see it happen and expand further.’
Michael Dunne: He's Seth Johnstone, policy and research director of Basic Rights Oregon. Seth, really appreciate your time. Thanks so much for coming on.
Johnstone: Thanks for having me.
Michael Dunne: Now let's check in with our own Kendra Schertell about a retired teacher who still goes to great lengths to teach anyone about the Declaration of Independence. Kendra Schertell, KLCC's intrepid arts and culture reporter, thanks so much for coming in and talking to us.
Kendra Schertell: Very nice. Nice talking to you.
Michael Dunne: Yeah, I enjoyed your story. It's about a quirky individual, which I think was kind of neat, and it dropped over the holiday weekend, but I wanted to talk about it because you met this interesting character. Tell us about Raymond Brown.
Schertell: Well, Raymond Brown is from Eugene, and he's a retired history teacher. He decided one day, in 2005 to be exact, to wear a costume from the colonial era and start handing out copies of the Bill of Rights to people, so they'd know their rights.
Michael Dunne: So, I mean, obviously he probably had some life experiences that led him to this. What was his background? I understand he was a teacher, right?
Schertell: He's a teacher, a history teacher. He just really loved history. He talked about how he loved watching old Westerns and related to Lewis and Clark's journey. He actually traveled from Ohio to Oregon on the Oregon Trail, in his Camaro. He talked about being adopted and how he felt like he took on America and the founding fathers as his own interest, maybe as a way to fill in not knowing who his birth parents were.
Michael Dunne: I see. Okay, interesting. So he does this, he commissions this colonial outfit. What did he do? Did he just walk around street corners, or was it more formal than that? Did he teach kids, did he teach adults? What did he do, and why did he want to do it?
Schertell: Well, it took a year for the outfit to be made. During that year, he decided to memorize the Declaration of Independence, the whole thing, not just the preamble, the whole thing. He wanted to go out and make sure people were researching and understanding the founding documents of this country, and he wanted to reach everyone, not just kids, because he found that even most adults didn't really know the Bill of Rights or the Constitution, or who the founding fathers really were.
Michael Dunne: Yeah, and a lot of statistics and reports bear that out. We're not so great at remembering history, whether we're kids or adults. Did he feel like it was important not just to teach but also, wearing the period piece, to be sort of a representative of the country and its history?
Schertell: Yeah, he did say he sees himself as representative of the people. He tries to make sure he doesn't express any political viewpoints. He stays away from that, to show people it's just about the founding documents. It's just about understanding, about knowing and increasing your education, so you can make better decisions for yourself and understand politics from your own viewpoint.
Michael Dunne: Well, and as I was reading your story, I realized he wasn't going to just stay put and educate people here in Eugene. He took a big walk, didn't he?
Schertell: He sure did. He walked all the way from Oregon to New Jersey. It took six months and a few days, I believe.
Michael Dunne: Wow. And on that journey, what did he do?
Schertell: Oh my gosh, he walked a lot. He met a lot of people. He told me the walk really restored his faith in humanity. He always struggled to ask people for help, and during the walk, he had to. People were more than willing to help, no matter what they believed. He saw it from both sides, met so many people, had so many great conversations and learned so much from people in different states.
Michael Dunne: Yeah, and it was funny. As I was reading your piece, there's an interesting anecdote where he met someone who was very much a Second Amendment advocate, the right to bear arms, which a lot of people really champion. He said to her, ‘Okay, that's great, you know about the Second Amendment. What about the others?’ And she didn't know. He wasn't using it to bully her or anything like that. He was just making the point that if you're going to pay attention to one amendment, it might be a good idea to pay attention to them all.
Schertell: She was saying she was big on the Second Amendment because it protects her other rights, so he asked, ‘Well, what are those other rights?’ It's important to know all of them. If you're going to care about one, you should care about the rest.
Michael Dunne: Yeah, obviously we just celebrated the Fourth, and I thought it was interesting that he talked about how this isn't just something he does on the Fourth of July. This is kind of his retirement, full-time gig, right?
Schertell: Yeah. I don't think he makes any money off this. It's just his retirement passion. He's not really retired, he's still in education. But yeah, he goes around all year. Anyone who will have him will do it, so I'm sure you could book him.
Michael Dunne: I also found it interesting because he's not someone who says, ‘Greatest country in the world, our founding fathers were wonderful, amazing people who had no faults.’ He talks about the fact that they were flawed individuals.
Schertell: Yes, he says they're human, and that we're going to look back and see their mistakes, that maybe some of what they wrote doesn't match how they acted. But he wants people to pay attention to the goal, and that goal is people, all people.
Michael Dunne: Yeah, when you talked with him, how would you describe his energy for this? It sounds like he's quite a passionate person.
Schertell: Oh yeah, he loves this. He tells these stories all the time. You can tell he just knows what he loves to talk about, and he does.
Michael Dunne: Yes. Did he also talk about, we're at a weird time in our country, we're very polarized, there's a lot of sniping, whether it's across the aisle or rural versus urban or whatever. There's just a lot going on in our country right now. Did he talk about this time, and maybe understanding both the Declaration of Independence and other important documents our country rests on? Did he also just talk about people getting along?
Schertell: Yes, I think his main message is that we all have more in common than we think, and that's what he wants to highlight. People ask him, when I was at his presentation, do people try to argue with you, do people bring things up? And he says, ‘No, well, people do, but we can always find something in common with them. As long as you're being respectful and listening, and you turn the conversation to something you can both agree on, it's not that hard.’
Michael Dunne: Yeah, I want to go back to the fact that he memorized the entire Declaration of Independence. I'm curious, when you talked to him and at his presentation, I mean, I'm sure a lot of people listening to us aren't going to do that, but I wanted to get from you, from him, just the importance of at least having a basic understanding of the document, even though, I'll admit, I probably don't know much about it myself, even though I was a poli-sci major in college.
Schertell: Well, my dad is also a retired history teacher, so it would be terrible to admit I also don't have too much knowledge of it. I did look up the Bill of Rights after this story, and I thought, wait a second, I don't think I know all of these.
Michael Dunne: Sure, sure. Well, and I think it sounds like, and we're talking about it now on the radio, this sounds like a goal of his: Even if he doesn't get everybody out there buying a copy of the Declaration of Independence, at least go online and take a look at it.
Schertell: Yes. I don't think his goal is to have us memorize the whole Declaration of Independence. It's to be aware of our rights and everything our country was founded on.
Michael Dunne: Yeah, and even though the Fourth has passed, I understand he took up residence in Harrisburg and had a little booth or table to talk to people.
Schertell: He did this Fourth of July. If you were at Harrisburg Park, you would have seen him.
Michael Dunne: Well, my last question for you, Kendra, is: It's neat that you cover arts and culture, and this is history, but it kind of fits with the idea that, well, would somebody take it upon themselves to dress up and educate? It is part of our culture, isn't it?
Schertell: Well, yeah, history, I'd say, definitely. You have historical reenactments, and that's kind of a mix of theater and history, which I love.
Michael Dunne: Yeah, and it sounds like he's kind of in that mode as well: dressing up but also being very factually accurate.
Schertell: Yes, he's fully embraced the outfit. He even has the long hair. Yeah, he's embraced it.
Michael Dunne: Well, it was a fun story. Thanks so much for telling it to us. Thank you, Kendra Schertell, our arts and culture reporter, thanks so much for coming in and chatting.
Schertell: Thanks for having me.
Michael Dunne: That's the show for today. All episodes of Oregon on the Record are available as a podcast at KLCC.org. Tomorrow on the show, we'll talk with a newly formed nonprofit trying to help both Eugene businesses and our homeless population. I'm Michael Dunne, host of Oregon on the Record. Thanks for listening.
