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MICHAEL DUNNE: I'm Michael Dunne. It might be the question of our age, should we provide resources and lower barriers within the social safety net to be proactive toward challenges that vulnerable populations will face, or do we wait for the problems to already occur and then deal with the outcome. A recent study that an OSU researcher was part of showed pretty definitively that if we make it easier for low-income people to receive benefits on the front end, we see better and more cost-effective outcomes for society in general. Today, on the show, we'll talk to that researcher about what they found. Then at the end of the show, we'll say goodbye to our summer interns and hear about their experiences in this unprecedented time for journalism. David Rothwell, Associate Professor and Barbara E Knudson endowed chair in Family Policy at Oregon State University. David, thanks so much for coming on and talking with us.
DAVID ROTHWELL: Thanks, Michael, glad to be back.
MICHAEL DUNNE: I read about your study about how expansions to the Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, or TANF program may help increase breastfeeding rates. Talk about this study and what your findings were?
DAVID ROTHWELL: I'm happy to talk about it. So, what this study really did was look at changes that happened in TANF policy during the pandemic, what researchers would call a natural experiment, so things that happened during that time period, and we're not a deliberate experimental design where we give a treatment to some group and withhold treatment to the control group, these things happened, and then we Look back at archive data to understand and to study what were the effects of those policy changes.
MICHAEL DUNNE: And what were they?
DAVID ROTHWELL: Yeah, so in this particular study, we were really interested in a series of TANF policy changes, which I can talk about and how those affected breastfeeding for new mothers.
MICHAEL DUNNE: David, what are some of the policy changes that your study looked at?
DAVID ROTHWELL: So, we looked at nine different policy changes that happened across states. One example is a one-time cash payment. Another one is normally under pre covid times, TANF had requirements for in person interviews, to be eligible and to go through the paperwork. There's also work requirements that are built into TANF. So, we studied changes in these things. So, changes in the work requirements in the direction of relaxing those work requirements, so not requiring as much work as before, waiving in person interviews, you know, things like online, online zoom interviews could have been done and so on. So, in general, they were designed to decrease administrative burden and increase TANF going to more people during the covid pandemic.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Let's get to the you know, kind of the big answer here, which is your study showed increased rates of breastfeeding with these TANF policy changes. Remind folks why that's a good thing. I think most people know, but just remind people why increasing rates of breastfeeding is a positive.
DAVID ROTHWELL: So, there's a pretty robust set of evidence from health and public health literature on the benefits to both mothers and infants for breastfeeding, the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that infants be breastfed exclusively for six months. There are other benefits for maternal child bonding, lower rates of hypertension and breast cancer and decreased infant mortality. There's a range of benefits for that.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Okay, so if I'm hearing you right, if, if lowering barriers to receive TANF, one of the outcomes was more low-income women were able to breastfeed. So that sounds great. So, this happened during Covid, sort of what's happening now we're outside of Covid, and let's face it, we're in a new administrative policy where there's a lot of cuts happening. Take up the story from there.
DAVID ROTHWELL: So yeah, most of the policy changes that we're seeing right now that are happening are to snap supplemental nutrition assistance programs in a form, way known as food stamps, or to Medicaid, the health primary health insurance system for individuals and families with low income. So there hasn't been a lot of discussion around or at least that I've seen it again. It varies a lot by state. So much of this depends. Much of this story depends on which state you live in and what TANF policies that given state is doing. So that's the broader context. But of course, when we have more difficult to access health insurance, when we have less access to nutrition for low-income people, these are all going to be a source of economic strain and stress that are going to transcend into the family system. They're not just going to affect individuals, parents, mothers, but they're going to affect children and so on. So, you know, a lot of people that study these things are concerned about the effects that these reductions and cuts to the safety net are going to have on families.
MICHAEL DUNNE: I know that this is probably a philosophical question, but, but it seems to me that we're having to ask these philosophical questions about cuts at the sort of the beginning part of a problem, when they where they could reduce a problem, we're going to be paying more for them later on as we see more negative health outcomes is that, is that kind of the way it's sort of looking?
DAVID ROTHWELL: Yeah. I mean, the cost question is a good one. And I think when I think about this, this particular study, you know, making changes to TANF policy that reduces administrative burden, and, you know, expands eligibility. That's more cost effective for the TANF program, because we don't have the TANF case workers don't have to be looking out for, you know, research. They don't have to, you know, do as much administrative work to make sure people are eligible. By expanding that eligibility, it's actually more cost effective to the program. So that's one cost benefit to this expanded access. And then, of course, healthier mothers and children are cost effective in the long run as well. So the cost argument there's, there's multiple sides to think about the way that argument is framed, and if these cuts are actually going to save costs long term.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Okay, maybe game this out for us a little bit. You know, look into the future three to five years, if TANF continues to be cut or it goes away entirely - what are some of the worst case scenarios we might see from something like that?
DAVID ROTHWELL: Well, I'll tie it to this study. You know, what this study does is really compare different states, you know? So just to give you an example of state-to-state variation in the TANF program right now, you know a three-person family in Arkansas would get around $200 in TANF benefits, compared to that same family in New Hampshire would get around 1200 so you see this massive difference In how states are funding these things. So, the way our system is structured now, and the way it's going is going to lead to just more state to state variation in these things. So your economic security, your health and so on, your child development and in family relations, a lot of those are going to depend on which state you live in, and so I would expect some states are going to push back find ways to support TANF in ways like we find Here, like expanding eligibility and reducing administrative burdens, some states are going to see that as a political priority and push for those, whereas others will not. And so, as researchers, that is helpful to study variation, you know, and that's one way to look at it. So, we can study these policy differences, but if we think about collectively, how to design and administer a program for a society's wellbeing. Having all this variation might not, might not be the best thing.
MICHAEL DUNNE: What's the TANF benefits? How does it look here in our state, in Oregon?
DAVID ROTHWELL: Yeah, so in Oregon, we did many of the things that we studied. So, we studied nine policies in this paper, and Oregon did almost all of those things to basically, you know, in general terms, I'm not going to go down the list of all the Sure, all the, all the policies we tested, but things like waving in person interviews and some work requirements, extending a onetime cash payment. Oregon also raised or eliminated the asset limits that go along with TANF, so if you save and accumulate a certain amount under prior rules, you would be ineligible for TANF. Well, Oregon eliminated some of those. So by most measures, there's a couple that Oregon hasn't done. And there's, of course, some areas where I think Oregon could improve its TANF policies to make it more accessible. But in general, Oregon provides, you know, quite a, quite a generous and progressive access to TANF.
MICHAEL DUNNE: David Rothwell, he is an associate professor and the Barbara E Knudson Endowed Chair of family in Family Policy for Oregon State University professor. Thank you so much for coming on again and talking with us.
DAVID ROTHWELL: Thank you, Michael. It's a pleasure.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Now let's bring in our interns and hear about their time with us as they prepare to leave. Gabriella Sgro and Julia Boboc who are our KLCC Snowden interns. Thanks for coming in and chatting.
GABRIELLA SGRO/JULIA BOBOC: Thanks for having us.
MICHAEL DUNNE: You guys have had quite a summer, I imagine.
GABRIELLA SGRO/JULIA BOBOC: Yeah, it's been loads of fun.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Cool. Well, let's start with you, Julia. What was probably the most important thing you think you learned during your internship?
JULIA BOBOC: Yes, there are so many things to choose from, genuinely, this is a really tough question. I think one of the most important things that I learned through this internship was just being confident and trusting that I can create a story and make a story and make it good, even when things are kind of thrown in my direction, or, you know, if I get edits back that are kind of changing the story, or anything like that, I've just kind of learned that, you know, I can figure it out, and I have the skills and the abilities and the people around me trust me, And so I can trust myself to do it as well.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Great. And then Gabriella, what was the most sort of difficult aspect of the job for you?
GABRIELLA SGRO: I would say the biggest thing I had to like adapt to, I guess, would be working with sort of minimal information, and like, learning how to, like, dissect a press release and understand what's important and the questions that you need to be asking when you receive that information, and just sort of learning how to take something that might not appear to be super newsworthy to the average person and either localizing it or concentrating on one specific aspect of it and sort of turning something that might not matter to people into something that does.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Julia back to you, and you don't have to name a specific person. But was there a really challenging interview that you had, whether it was, you know, the circumstance of the interview, or just, you know that, obviously not everybody is a great interview. And so what were, sort of, the challenges in pursuing that story?
JULIA BOBOC: Oh, that's a great question…
GABRIELLA SGRO: I've got one if you want.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Okay, let's go to Gabriella.
GABRIELLA SGRO: Well, I know Julia, this is much different than your experience. But for one story I did here. I had to interview a child, and this, you know, someone who's like, under 12 years old. And I found it was, it's hard when people aren't, especially young people, aren't really super comfortable talking on the record, and, you know, understand what it means to talk to the media and like you're holding a microphone, but what am I supposed to say? You're asking me these questions. Am I supposed to just answer exactly what you want? What am I supposed to say? And sometimes I yeah, in this interview in particular, I'm thinking about it was just hard to, like, get someone comfortable in talking and being like, this is a conversation. Like, it's not that big of a deal. I'm just asking you about this thing. Sure. It was kind of funny, because I remember walking away and just being like, I don't even know if I'm gonna be able to use it but it was cute to young people involved.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Well, Julia, back to you.
JULIA BOBOC: So, this was, actually, I did a story about a gym in Eugene that is specific for people with Parkinson's disease, it was a fantastic story, and I feel really grateful to have been able to see all the great work that they're doing. And Gabriella was with me taking pictures, so we got to go through that together. But it was I realized kind of very early on in an interview with one of the members of the gym who had Parkinson's that I had, kind of, I didn't actually know enough about the disease, sure. So, he was talking to me about it, and I realized that I just kind of had this gap, and I didn't necessarily know how to respond to certain parts, especially with something like Parkinson's that is so consuming for people. So, I had this very, I don't know, almost embarrassing moment in the middle of the interview where I was like, oh gosh, I need to really make sure to not make a fool of myself and say something inappropriate or insensitive for this person. And it was kind of tough, because I really thrive off of validation from my interviewer. I thrive off of that energy and then, you know, getting excited or smiling or looking at me. And I wasn't necessarily getting that, and I was worried that I was, you know, being a horrible interviewer, which is totally possible. But I actually heard from the owner of the gym who I interviewed afterwards, she spoke to me a little bit about how people with Parkinson's actually sometimes have difficulty showing their emotions on their face, and they can be, you know, happy, but they don't necessarily show it. And so that made me feel a little better. Made me feel a little bit like, okay, maybe this just wasn't the manifestation of what they were feeling, but they were still happy to be interviewed, and that story was received well. So hopefully that's true, but I definitely had a moment where it was a little bit like, am I being a terrible interview right now?
MICHAEL DUNNE: Well, you each have brought a couple of clips to talk about the stories that you produce. So, Gabriella, let's go to you, because you had this piece about the Astro society. We're going to play the clip right now when we come back and talk about it.
CLIP:
GABRIELLA SGRO: Yeah. So this was one of the first stories I had pitched to our editor. Was I had found it on like a community calendar, and it was like the first stargazing party out at Dexter reservoir? I'd never heard of something like this before. It was super you. Super, like, up my alley. I'm kind of into space, kind of into that whole nerdy scene, and, and I was like, Chris, I got to go. This sounds like loads of fun. And I had no idea what to expect. I didn't necessarily prep in the most efficient way, like I remember showing up, and it started at 9pm and it was dark, and I had to try to plug in my recorder and find someone to talk to, and it was like, pitch black. But it was so amazing because all of these Astro society members brought out their telescopes, and there was like 250 people in this huge field, and there's, you know, over a dozen telescopes, and everyone's just wandering around looking at the stars. People have, like, headlamp songs, so there's just, like, little red lights everywhere. And everyone is just so happy to be there and be a part of this community. And I was walking around just like with the recorder on, asking people what they were looking at. And it's it was just such a amazing moment to just like, talk with people and be like, Oh, this is actually where the Milky Way is. This is a star, that star is actually dying. That's like, over 4 million light years away, like it was just one of those moments where I felt really lucky that this is my job to just immerse myself in this moment and talk to people about this really interesting thing that they care about a lot.
MICHAEL DUNNE: So, Julia, you did a piece about the Bethel School District. Let's play that clip, and when we come back, tell us about that.
CLIP:
JULIA BOBOC: Yeah. So this was the second feature that I did at KLCC, and definitely the most fun I've had working on a story. I got to interview some kids as well, but this particular moment in the clip that we just listened to was a really special moment for me as a journalist, being able to witness just an emotional moment, and it was completely by chance, and I was just walking around with the principal of the school, and we walked into a fifth-grade classroom and came in and saw this kid, Andrew, and his he was with his teacher, and his teacher was like, hey, like, Andrew read for the principal. Like, this is like, you act. You got to hear this. So, I'm like, fumbling for my microphone, like, I have to record this. This is such a big deal, and then having that emotional moment of, you know, just seeing how hard, obviously, this was for this student, and how this is exactly what the program is about. It's about helping kids get better. And when they do get better, and they do succeed, celebrating them fully, you know entirely. And I just felt kind of like what Gabriela said. I mean, that was just a moment that I just felt so lucky to have been able to witness, and so grateful as a journalist to be able to experience that moment with the people that were there. You know, I'm a complete stranger. You know, what am I doing there? Well, I just have my microphone in my hand, and I'm able to document this really beautiful moment of success. And it was just, I was very grateful for it, and I had never, hadn't really gotten to experience something like that before.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Julia Boboc and Gabriella Sgro our Snowden interns for the summer who are going to be leaving us in the next few days. You guys have done great work. Thanks so much for coming in and chatting.
GABRIELLA SGRO/JULIA BOBOC: Thanks, Michael.
MICHAEL DUNNE: That's the show for today. All episodes of Oregon On The Record are available as a podcast at KLCC.org. Tomorrow, on the show, we talk with Eugene's longtime sports talk show host Steve Tanen. He's seen the industry and the medium change over the decades, and he'll talk to you all about it. I'm Michael Dunne, and this has been Oregon ON The Record from KLCC, thanks for listening.
