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MICHAEL DUNNE: I'm Michael Dunne. There is probably nothing more dangerous to modern healthcare than confusion and mistrust at the beginning, middle and end of the day. We all hope to have a basic understanding of what we need to do to be healthy and that we can trust the experts who tell us what to do if mistrust and confusion reigns, the whole system breaks down. That's what Senator Ron Wyden believes is happening right now, and he blames one person above all, Health and Human Services Secretary Robert Kennedy Jr, today on the show, Senator Wyden joins us to talk about his call for RFK Jr to resign after a fiery hearing in front of the Senate, Wyden also spares no criticism of other actors and actions by the Trump administration. Senator Wyden is known as a fairly mild-mannered politician who would rather reach across the aisle to work with his colleagues in the Republican caucus than rant and rave about their actions. As such, it was rather surprising to hear the senator use his time at a recent hearing to excoriate the Trump administration and take the major step of calling for the resignation of the Health and Human Services Secretary, Robert Kennedy Jr, I'm going to play for you some sound from that hearing now to showcase the Senator's indignation.
SENATOR WYDEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As the committee gathers today, the United States is in the midst of a health care calamity, the largest cuts to American health care in the history of our nation, and they are approaching like an avalanche. Last week, most of the senior leadership at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention were fired or they resigned after refusing to bow to Robert Kennedy's unceasing crusade against vaccines. I traveled across Oregon last month, and the message was the same from one end of the state to the other. Families are confused. They're scared about who to trust about their health care. Robert Kennedy and Donald Trump have done so much to feed that mistrust. I don't think Robert Kennedy should be within a million miles of this job. Republicans on the committee had a chance to prevent the public health train wreck that Mr. Kennedy had engineered. Everyone voted for him. It is in the country's best interest that Robert Kennedy stepped down, and if he doesn't Donald Trump should fire him before more people are hurt, but his reckless disregard for science and the truth. I also would like to note senator Cantwell has joined us in this effort. I hope, at the very least, Robert Kennedy has the decency to tell the truth this morning.
DUNNE: Today on the show, the senator was in the community for a town hall, and he stopped by to talk about his efforts to combat much of the Trump administration agenda, including his work to help free an Oregon man detained by ICE while battling a wildfire. Senator Ron Wyden, always good to see you. Thanks so much for coming in.
WYDEN: Great to be back and glad to see that you continue to be indestructible.
DUNNE: I don't know about that, but So Senator, you were very harsh on Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F Kennedy when he was in DC testifying before your committee. Talk about what you want.
WYDEN: I believe that he should no longer be in office and that he consistently trashes good science, and that is to the detriment of Oregonians and the American people, for example, on something like 20 occasions, he pledged in his confirmation hearing that he would not do anything to restrict access to vaccines. He seems to get up every day and do exactly that well, and certainly just a few days ago, big announcement about the active ingredient in Tylenol and acetaminophen, which told women to tough it out. What kind of science is that?
DUNNE: So, I guess when a United States senator such as yourself asks for someone to resign, is there a process? Is it that? Well, the President just says, Fine, I don't care. I'm not going to listen to you. What can we do?
WYDEN: What I will tell you is, in private, a number of Senate Republicans have had it and really feel that he is no longer doing what's necessary to protect the American people. Now, whether they are willing to be more outspoken about it, remains to be seen. The hearing, particularly in front of the finance committee, where I'm the ranking Democrat, did not go well, and he faced a lot of Republican senators Tillis and others who made it clear that they don't support this.
DUNNE: Talk about the growing stance about vaccines, especially when you've got situations where we're rolling into flu season and of course, and of course Covid. Talk about what the HHS Secretary has done. And then I want to ask you about what Oregon is joining with other states…
WYDEN: What he has done is replaced the people who have a long history of doing science on the basis of its merits, and replaced them with essentially people who are political and don't have background. And I think Oregon joining the regional effort to try to support access to vaccines has a great opportunity, and I'm very supportive of what I think is going to be a federal state partnership.
DUNNE: Well, talk a little bit more about that, because it is interesting. You are a federally you're a federal official, you're a United States Senator, but obviously you care more about Oregon than probably anybody else. But it's, it's this weird sort of a situation we find ourselves in where states such as Washington, Oregon, California, Hawaii, are going it alone with certain things. Just talk about what that means to you.
WYDEN: What it means is, it is essentially a statement by the states that the federal government has forfeited its right to basically lead on these issues, and until they get it back, they are going to do the best job they can at the state level. And we have wonderful institutions in Oregon and Washington, just too for example, stepping up and being leaders, and so many of the steps that Robert Kennedy has taken are detrimental. But let me tell you one that I bet your readers are really frustrated over, and that is that it's very hard to get to pharmacies now under the rules to get access to vaccines, and that's something that is also good for people. It's convenient for people, and it supports our small pharmacies, and I'm doing everything I can to get that access back.
DUNNE: I never asked you to do a tutorial of politics 101, but if you could kind of remind folks why we keep getting to these moments where, oh, the government is going to run out of money. We need these stop gap funding.
WYDEN: Let me start Michael by talking about why it's so serious right now. We have got 1000s and 1000s of Oregonians walking an economic tightrope today, balancing their food bill against the fuel bill against housing. It was reported recently by some of the economics reporters that a third of Oregonians wouldn't be able to handle a $400 emergency. You say that to yourself, you know, that's a medicine. Potentially, it is going to be so important that we say, let's continue to put the focus on doing those things that will help the economy and help people, particularly afford their bills. For example, it's very clear to me, and healthcare is the area I've specialized in, as a former director of the Gray Panthers, that premiums are going to go through the stratosphere, and it has already begun. Now the Trump people have the federal government and both branches of Congress, they ought to be stepping in and being helpful. And the fact that there is no real partnership between the Trump administration and a bipartisan effort in Congress is really detrimental.
DUNNE: Well, even today, the President canceled a meeting with leadership on the Democratic side.
WYDEN: It is, it is jaw dropping, because you say to yourself, you only have a few days to go. What's the harm in saying, Let's get together and see what we can do, and if we can't do it all in one session, we'll come back? But I think again, it is forfeiting fundamental responsibilities. And for the President to say, I'm not going to talk at a time when we're looking at a shutdown that could really bring great economic peril is just wrong.
DUNNE: Talk about Social Security. You and I have talked about these many times before.
WYDEN: Let's talk about the new report. I asked the budget experts to give me an analysis of the economics of passing this flawed Trump tax bill. And they said that this is going to speed up the acceleration of Medicare in particular, running out of money. And I think the consequences of a bill that essentially didn't do anything but crumbs for working people and gave billions to billionaires, I think is going to be something we regret, and I'll make it available on my website for listeners to see this, because this is really stunning. Report from the government auditors, who point blank, said that this Trump gift to the billionaires is going to contribute to our challenge in terms of debts and making our responsibilities, and in particular, would hasten the time when Medicare ran out of money.
DUNNE: Another thing that's been quite in the news recently is the Trump administration sort of having Portland in its cross hairs, in its move, its strategy with regard to sending federal troops to American cities. Talk about that from your perspective.
WYDEN: There's no evidence that it's warranted. You know, when you're talking about using the machinery of the federal government for something like this. It's supposed to be for very rare kinds of occasions, and that's not the case with Donald Trump. If Donald Trump gets mad at a particular city or sees a TV show, which apparently was what precipitated his concern about Portland, then all of a sudden, my God, he's taking over that, that that community, and it doesn't have a constitutional found Foundation, and would obviously be something that would make Oregonians very angry and say, what's, what's the rationale?
DUNNE: Are there things that you or the governor, are there things that can be done to thwart that effort?
WYDEN: Well, we're, we're constantly trying to use our bully, you know, pulpit, and use the leverage we have. I just mentioned this, this question of spelling out what the costs are, the tax bill and Bobby Kennedy in terms of how we're responding to them. So, we're not without tools, but it's certainly hard when they have all the branches of government.
DUNNE: You mentioned TV. I did want to get your opinion about something that has been in the news that's really come to a head is, is the FCC Chairman taking aim at someone like Jimmy Kimmel?
WYDEN: Way, way out of line. I mean, he basically is making a statement that it's the equivalent of saying, When I find something offensive, we're going to use the machinery of the federal government to block it, and that's not what the First Amendment is all about. I don't know if I've mentioned it on your show before, but my dad was a journalist, and particularly thought the First Amendment was so important, and once he told me, read about it, Ron, because the Founding Fathers, a number of them, thought that the First Amendment was actually more important than government. These Founding Fathers, several of them, Jefferson, others said, you know, government, we're gonna have to deal with debates and forums and all the rest about the First Amendment, making sure that people have the ability to speak out and do what they weren't allowed to do, and much of the world was key.
DUNNE: And then, of course, just a day ago, he was reinstated. And so, it seemed like there was a lot of grassroots pressure to get him back on the air.
WYDEN: There's, I think, growing awareness that free speech is bipartisan. My goodness, I don't agree with Ted Cruz on everything, but he came out and to his credit, said point blank, this was wrong.
DUNNE: Now we've chatted a little bit before, and I wanted to kind of revisit it, the Epstein files, and certainly, you know, there's, there's still a lot of interest in those being released. I kind of wanted to check in with you on that?
WYDEN: Well, a couple of developments. I'm waiting to get things ironed out, but we may have some additional matters to bring to Oregonian’s attention in the next few days. I think there is growing support for what I started three years ago, which I call the follow the money approach. For example, Chairman Omer, I believe, in the house, he basically decided that he was going to pick up on my approach and ask the Treasury Department for the kind of records that I'm talking about. And constantly now you see Republican members of Congress saying, We got to follow the money trail and the like. And we're continuing to say, look, major institutions broke down. The banks did not do what their job was. The auditors didn't do what their job was. The IRS, you know, just basically passed on the enforcement of the tax laws. And as we speak, Trump has, excuse me, Epstein has some of his former henchmen out there, you know, dealing with various kinds of programs, and the compensation fund is not being fairly distributed, and we're raising that. So, I think that we're going to continue to say, this is not red, it's not blue. We're going to stay at it until people get all the information, and then I'm going to work for the reforms that are necessary, starting with the banks and the Internal Revenue Service.
DUNNE: Speaking of reforms, I know you've been sort of this, this, this champion of rising premiums and how it's affecting consumers. Just talk about that.
WYDEN: Well, what was clear is that Trump had no interest in controlling costs, and so much of the health care kind of system is still outdated. It leans more to care that's not coordinated, but fee for service, and then you add the fact that he doesn't want to help people who are in the exchanges, which is really what the premium fight is all about. Now, it's a prescription for trouble, and you've got a lot of people who are going to see their premiums pretty closely to doubling here in the next few days.
DUNNE: Closer to home, I wanted to see if you had an update. There was an Oregon firefighter who was detained by ICE and I think that, as I understand it, there's been some resolution there. Can you talk about that? Tell our audience about this.
WYDEN: A bit of good news. Today, and for several weeks, I've been leading the congressional effort to secure the release of an Oregon firefighter. His name is Mr. Hernandez, who was detained by ICE while fighting the bear Gulch fire in Washington State, we've been pushing the ICE agency to make sure that we know his whereabouts, and they detained him, and we've been watch dogging ice to make sure that his attorneys at the innovation lab had access to him and could secure his release. And as of this morning, Mr. Hernandez has been released, and he's finally home in Kaiser, and we'll be seeing his family, maybe, as we talk in this program that that's the case. He is Michael, a textbook example of somebody who has followed the immigration process. He followed all the laws. He put his life on the line to keep his community safe from wildfires at a time when everybody who was watching forestry said, we need more manpower. And the Trump administration, instead of recognizing his sacrifice to the country, they had him arrested and thrown into a detention facility. And I said, Enough already. This is something where I'm going to take a stand, and we just made it clear that ice had no business detaining somebody who was doing so much to help us in an area that is so critical, which is fighting fire in the Northwest. And it would be nice if Trump's immigration agenda was shifted to make sure that somebody like this is recognized as making a big difference, instead of doing things that make our country less safe.
DUNNE: Senator, my last two questions for you are, the first one is, there's very little you haven't seen in DC and politics in general. And I, I just wanted to get your opinion about what you've seen in the past eight months since the Trump administration has come to power. Has it shocked you?
WYDEN: It has caused me to look at the government in a completely different way. I mean, we have someone you know, who is the president of the United States, who basically resists any kind of restraint on his power whatsoever. Now, the founding fathers never said that the President of the United States was to be a king. In fact, people like Washington made it clear they weren't to be a king. But you wonder, for example, Trump wants a shutdown in the government, because he could then say, I'm going to be in charge of everything, and you'll either do it my way, or you'll face, you know, the consequences. So, I think this is unique, and what we're battling for is the separation of powers that the founding fathers’ thought was so important.
DUNNE: And so my last question is, what gives you optimism going forward? You've made your intention to run again. You want to stay in the Senate. Talk about what gives you hope?
WYDEN: Well, Mr. Hernandez is an example of where we led that fight for weeks and weeks. We pointed out, for example, that this was somebody who was doing something that was so helpful to our safety, and it was wrong to have them in a detention facility. And we pushed and pushed and pushed, and today we got them out. So, we constantly see these little snapshots in terms of how you can make, make a difference. But there is no question in terms of these big issues, like the question of, how do we, you know, protect our financial resources right now, where Donald Trump may just say, I'm not going to talk and I'm just going to, you know, run everything, and you can line up, and if you do what I say. We'll see what we can do. And if not, you're just out of luck. And I think the consequences of this period are uniquely important, because so many big things are coming up. Take AI, what if Donald Trump says I'm just going to make all the decisions on artificial intelligence and not empower others? To be part of the discussion, and we'll see what happens.
DUNNE: He's Oregon Senator Ron Wyden. Always appreciate you coming in and talking. Thank you, sir.
WYDEN: Let's do it again soon.
DUNNE: That's the show for today. All episodes of Oregon On The Record are available as a podcast at KLCC.org. We want to get your opinion for a show we're working on. The city of Eugene is revisiting a proposal that would ban drivers from giving money to panhandlers in traffic. Under the ordinance, drivers would not be allowed to hand items to pedestrians unless legally parked, and Violators could be fined up to $50. The police have said it's a way to increase safety and educate drivers. But what do you think about this potential ban? Do you think it's a good idea, or do you think it might harm people who need money to survive? Let us know your thoughts by going to our pages at Facebook, BlueSky or Instagram, or send us an email at questions@klcc.org. Monday on the show, join me as I set sail with OSU whale researchers in search of humpbacks and other whales off the Oregon coast. Their research is to help both identify habitat needs for whales, but to also record injuries sustained by fishing gear, which are increasing and increasing. I'm Michael Dunne, and this has been Oregon On The Record from KLCC. Thanks for listening.
