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MICHAEL DUNNE: I'm Michael Dunne. When I was a kid, many experts warned that watching too much TV was going to warp one's mind. When my kids were little, we were bombarded with messages that playing hours of video games would turn their brains to mush, and certainly some people may have been negatively impacted, but as a total population, the evidence suggests the dire warnings never happened. Currently, many experts say that spending too much time on one smartphone will lead to major mental health challenges. Today, on the show, you will hear from a U of O professor who has led a large national study, which suggests that the conventional wisdom about smartphone use and mental well-being is also overblown. Then we'll finish out the show checking in with a Eugene woman who's leading a walking group across the nation in the name of civility. Professor Nick Allen the Anne Swindels Professor of Clinical Psychology and director of the University of Oregon's Center for Digital mental health. Thanks so much for coming on and talking with us.
NICK ALLEN: It's my pleasure.
MICHAEL DUNNE: You recently were part of this large national study, and the headline find minimal link between smartphone use and well-being in adults. Just go ahead and tell us. What did your study find?
NICK ALLEN: Yeah, so this, this study is an interesting study for a number of reasons. The first one is that it's an academic industry collaboration. So, you know, one of the things that's really been hard about understanding the way digital devices and the use of them affects people's mental health and well-being is that the people who have the best data on this are the companies, and so the companies haven't always been forthcoming with, you Know, collaborating with independent researchers on understanding these relationships. And so, this one was really great, because Google actually reached out to me and they were interested in doing a very large and definitive study on this topic. And they really, you know, threw open the books for this study and allowed us to, you know, collect data through the Android operating system on how people use their smartphones that we wouldn't have otherwise had access to. So, I do, I do really give them credit for that. But the second thing that rose out of that is that we were actually able to measure objectively how people were using their phones. And this is a big deal, because most of the research that we have at the moment is based on people answering questionnaires about how they think they use their phones. And I don't know about you, Michael, but I wouldn't have much of a clue, frankly, about how much time I spend on my phone every day, and, and, in fact, the research that we have on this question tends to tell us that people aren't particularly good at telling us how much they use their phones. And so having an objective measure was a really important step forward in terms of the research that's available. And then finally, we did have a very large sample. We had about 10,000 people drawn from all over the United States who participated in the study. It's not, it's not as representative of the community as we hoped it would be, but it's, it's probably fair to say it's more representative than most studies that have been done like this. It really covers all ages, all genders, all geographic regions. We've got participants from every state in the union and, you know, a lot and lots of different variability and other factors, such as racial and ethnic backgrounds for people. So, it was a really important study for all those reasons. Now to get to what we found. What we found mostly was that there wasn't a particularly strong relationship between how much you use your phone and people's mental health and well-being. We did find a couple of very small effects, so effects that are not very strong and not very definitive, but they were there. But most of the effects we looked at were null. As we say in science, you know, they were, they were null relationships, which means that we couldn't detect a real effect there.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Okay, and could explain to the audience, you did a great job explaining what the findings were…how did you conduct this study? And kind of especially talk about how you know Google's participation and how this worked, versus what you said the old studies were where you would just survey people, right?
NICK ALLEN: So, this was, this was done as part of a health research platform that Google had developed that is part of the Android phone operating system. So, one thing that's important to note is that all the people in our study were using Android phones. And of course, in the United States, the majority of people use iPhones, Apple phones. But we were working with Android phones because we were working with Google and basically people, there was a reach out to people to say, Would you like to participate in this study? If they said yes, then they would go to their phone, they would download this app, and they would enroll in the study. And then the phone would sit in the background, most of the time, measuring how they were using their phone and then, and then it would occasionally ping them with questions, asking them about their mental health and well-being and other things like that, and this only went for four weeks, so people participated in the study for four weeks, and then. And then, at that point, the app stopped collecting data and was turned off.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Okay, why do you think Google reached out to you. I mean, obviously skeptical people might say, “well Google sells phones, and so they're, they're interested in, if there was a link to detach it from mental health. Why do you think they reached out to you and said, We're going to throw our books open to you so that we can look, you know, we can help in terms of this study?
NICK ALLEN: Well, I think that, you know, there are a number of people at Google who are very interested in what's called Digital well-being. And I think that, you know, I obviously can't speak for them too much, you were sure to ask them, but my impression was that there were a number of folks there who were really interested in generating a good quality answer to these questions. You know, there's been a lot of discussion about the use of phones and how it affects well-being and you know that they have, they have people at the company who are really focused on trying to make sure that people use their products in a way that enhances their well-being. And, you know, I would say that at the end of the day, I think that's good business for them too. You know, they don't if you have a product that's affecting people's well-being in a negative way, eventually people are going to stop using that product. And so, I think they wanted to understand the issue, both from a kind of a product point of view, but also a commercial point of view. And I think you know, also, there've been various calls like the Surgeon General in the previous Biden administration, wrote an op ed in the New York Times where he called for, you know, warning labels on social media products for, especially for teenagers. And as part of that, he said that the large technology companies should be collaborating with independent researchers to get to the bottom of these questions. And so, I think there was some openness to that suggestion as well.
MICHAEL DUNNE: This may be a difficult question to answer, but I am curious, because you could look at cell phones as simply a tool that allows someone access to a world of content. And so, my question is, you know, during this study, were you able to kind of isolate certain types of content that people were looking at? Because, obviously, and you mentioned social media earlier, obviously, if, if someone only looks at social media too, I don't know, look at cat videos, chances are that that may not impact their mental health. But if someone goes on social media and looks at stuff that can be very incendiary, even violent, that may change. I just wanted to see kind of where this study lands in relationship to the actual content and sites that people are going to utilize a mobile device?
NICK ALLEN: Yeah, look, you've put your finger on a really great question, and I've just spent a bit of time telling you, you know, what a terrific study it was, and how we were able to improve on previous research. But there are also some very significant limitations to the current study, and you've put your finger on one of the most important in my opinion, which is that what we were able to do is we were able to understand how much time people were spending on their phone, and we were able to tell how much time they were spending on different categories of apps. Okay, so for example. Social media apps, messaging apps, news apps, you know, different things like that. But what we would, what we are not able to answer in this study, and is a very difficult question to answer, is, what are people actually doing in those apps? And, you know, I think to my mind, at least one of the takeaways for me from this study is that we shouldn't be focusing so much on how much we use our phones, but we should be focusing on what we do when we use them, and, and this is an issue that still requires, you know, really good research attention, but I think the point you make is exactly right. You can use your phone in a way that's kind of entertaining and that connects you with people, and that where you use it to find out important information, all these really positive things. And you can also use your phone in a way that exposes you to political extremism, to pornography, to violence, to bullying. You know, there's a whole lot of negative experiences that can occur as well. And, you know, I think that that's where we need to make the discussion about this much more sophisticated and nuanced than it has been. There's been a lot of talk about people using their phones too much. And really, I think the important question is, how are they using their phones? And our results here tell us just simply knowing how much people use their phones doesn't tell you a lot about their mental health and wellbeing, but I suspect that if we look at the kinds of things that they expose themselves to when they're using their phones, that that's going to be where we need to be focusing our attention in terms of supporting people to use these devices in a way that's positive and that reduces the risks associated with them.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Professor, my last question for you is this maybe a philosophical one, but certainly, you know, different generations have had to come to terms with a technology that suddenly became a boogeyman, if you will. I'm old enough when, certainly my generation, it was all about, oh, watching so much TV is going to rot your brains. And then perhaps a generation later, it was video games. Playing video games for too long is going to rot your brain.
NICK ALLEN: Yeah, I think that's a really important point. The fact is that panic is about technology, new technologies and what they will do to the youth of today are nothing new. You know, you can go back to time immemorial. These examples are so numerous, it's hard to know. You know where to stop with them. And so, I think we do need to recognize that all technologies, when they're new, create panic, and particularly if they are attractive to young people, because often there's a generation gap that plays out around that.
MICHAEL DUNNE: He's Professor Nick Allen, The Anne Swindels, Professor of Clinical Psychology and director of the University of Oregon's Center for Digital mental health. Professor, thanks so much for coming on and talking to us.
NICK ALLEN: Thank you.
MICHAEL DUNNE: In May, we first introduced you to a Eugene woman walking across the country to promote civility. Well, we caught up with her on the road to find out how it's going. Esther Tishman of Liberty Walks, first of all, how's it going, and where the heck are you?
ESTHER TISHMAN: Well, it's going pretty darn well. I am in normal Illinois right now. Bloomington Normal is where Illinois Wesleyan University is and where Illinois State University is, and so I am literally speaking to you from a Methodist Church conference room at the heart of the Illinois State University campus, and it is day 110 of our 150 days on the road.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Yeah, to remind our listeners, Liberty walks you. You set off out of Eugene, I believe back in May or June…
ESTHER TISHMAN: July 4.
MICHAEL DUNNE: July 4, that's right, yes. And your goal is really to start conversations about civility and togetherness. So, you know, tell us about the walk. Tell us about, you know, some of the conversations you've had with people.
ESTHER TISHMAN: So, I mean, really, the whole goal of Liberty Walks is, is less about having conversations that are probing the issues of the day, right? Because I think we're at a place right now where we're all living in such silos. We're so kind of we're getting our news from different sources. We're having the algorithm, algorithm online, point us in different directions, direct different pieces of information toward us. So, I think right now, talking with people who don't agree exactly with you on every issue has become almost existentially painful. So, we're not having conversations about stuff. We're eating dinner with people. We're meeting people we're, you know, endeavoring to kind of break out of our little blue. Bubbles and encounter the breadth and depth of the land. What you know is great that you're having those meals and so on and so forth, but you're doing this at the same time that you're doing something that very few people can even imagine, which is, of course, walking across the country.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Take us through some of the challenges of simply doing that.
ESTHER TISHMAN: So, picture walking four or five hours a day on the side of a highway. So, you know, everything from blisters to more blisters to even more blisters to just grappling with road noise and semis and, you know, angry dogs at the side of a rancher's home. So, there's just the physicality of it. But I think the emotional and psychological part of it is harder than the physical side of it, at least for me, and that is, you know, what does it mean to, like, literally, each day step out into something unknown. You know, we usually know where we're spending the night, but not always. I don't know where I'm spending the night tomorrow night. So, you know, just, just dealing with the unknown. And of course, at a time when so much feels unknown in our civic space, and when it it feels so kind of, you know, a little bit like vertigo, just to be an American right now, at least for me, sure, so like this is practical, practical experience in walking forward into a future that we don't know, and doing so with an active faith that you know we can figure it out, and we can especially figure it out if we encounter our neighbors, we get a little bit out of our bubbles.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Yeah, I'm curious, because chances are, somebody has probably seen you and said something like, what are you doing? And then when you tell them what they're doing, what is that reaction like?
ESTHER TISHMAN: Well, you know, so usually what I say to people is, you know, we're just walking to connect in this time of disconnection and, you know, or in a time when things feel tense and when there's a lot of contention, we're wanting to walk with an open heart and express faith in this American experiment. Usually people, no matter what I mean, they hear Eugene Oregon. And so, a lot of folks who a lot of folks will kind of project onto us what they think my politics are. We don't talk about politics, but even folks who may completely disagree with whatever they think, I believe they resonate with this sense that it's hard to get along with your neighbor right now. And so, with very, very few like to count them on one hand, exceptions, we have met with smiles and nods of heads when we talk about wanting to connect. Then there are the occasional folks who, you know, their eyes light up and you can tell that, like the whole idea of a pilgrimage or walking across like that that resonates, like the idea that the horizon is open and we can walk into it. So those moments are really precious when people's eyes glisten with excitement.
MICHAEL DUNNE: I bet. So, a two-part question next, yeah, you know, kind of a standard interview question along the lines when you're doing something so epic is, can you describe to us what was the worst day? And then, of course, the corresponding thing, what was the best day?
ESTHER TISHMAN: That's super hard to do. So, I would say there are the worst moments of any day that happened with, you know, there are moments where I'm just like, What the heck am I doing? So, the worst parts of this come it's, it's internal, you know, it's this is, it's like the doubt of doing something, you know, out of my comfort zone. And so there have been a lot of moments along the road where I am typically walking by myself because of the way we split up the walks, okay, where I'm just like, holy cow, why? And I have to just reconnect with my feelings and my faith and what I'm doing. And that's not easy. One of my co-pilots, Bob, one of his worst moments, probably his worst moment, was having a shotgun leveled at him by an angry rancher whose land he claimed Bob was trespassing upon. And. Bob, you know, defuse the moment. But again, that's like, Oh, that was one time in the 110 days. My best moments have been just the exhilaration of how beautiful this country is. You know, walking through Grand Teton National Park. You know, crossing the Continental Divide in a hailstorm, which was just epic and incredible. Up in the mountains, walking, walking through, even walking through, you know, like the prairie, just vast expanses. It's just beautiful. And then some of the relationships that we've forged, even in brief encounters, where it's like you just find yourself completely falling in love with people you know, just like Man, this person I would never have met in my life is nothing like theirs, and yet they are gorgeous human beings.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Wow. So, Esther, my last question for you is this kind of game, this out for us? What's next for you? What's the ultimate destination, if there is one.
ESTHER TISHMAN: Well, you know, the proximate destination of Washington, DC, is coming up pretty soon. I think the ultimate destination is that I can through this experience of opening my heart and my mind in this pretty radical way that I can sustain that capacity, even when I return to my, you know, regular life, I am a writer. So, there will be writing, and I am a teacher and, you know, a member of clergy. And so there will be, there will be things that I say and want to say in ways that I want to help be a voice of love and courage and consciousness and conscience in this time. So, I'm not exactly sure what that will look like. I'm not sure what will happen with Liberty walks or nonprofits that that future has not been written about yet.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Well, Esther Tishman, who is of Liberty Walks. And I just really want to say, admire your tenacity, your spirit. It's great checking in with you and we'll do so again when you get to DC. Thank you.
ESTHER TISHMAN: Thank you so much, Mike, such a pleasure talking to you. Take good care.
MICHAEL DUNNE: That's the show for today. All episodes of Oregon On The Record are available as a podcast at KLCC.org. Tomorrow on the show, we'll check in with two of our reporters about two big stories they're covering involving White Bird and PacificSource. I'm Michael Dunn, host of Oregon On The Record. Thanks for listening.
