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Michael Dunne: I'm Michael Dunne. The term singer-songwriter can be a bit nebulous, after all, many singers write their own songs, and many songwriters also step up to the microphone. So, what makes you an artist in both categories? It's a term that's hard to define, but as the old saying goes, you know it when you hear it. Today's guest is most definitely a singer-songwriter, and she's been firmly in that camp for decades. Mary Chapin Carpenter, who has a shelf full of Grammys and multiple platinum albums, joins me today, just a couple days before her show at the Hayden Homes Amphitheater in Bend, with hits like Down at the Twist and Shout, and He Thinks He'll Keep Her, Carpenter is a luminary in the American folk genre, and she's bringing her signature voice to Central Oregon. Five-time Grammy Award-winning singer, songwriter, and performer Mary Chapin Carpenter. Welcome to the program.
Mary Chapin Carpenter: Thank you, Michael. It's great to be here.
Dunne: Well, let's start with this. Tell us about the show coming up this weekend in our community in Bend, Oregon.
Carpenter: Well, I, when I heard from my manager that Rhiannon Giddens had reached out to see if we would be interested in being a part of these shows. I was just so excited in Bend. It will be, of course, Rhiannon and her wonderful band, and then the great, the legend that is Mavis Staples, and then Hooray For The Riffraff, a band that I have loved for a very long time. So, doing these shows is it feels very dream come true.
Dunne: Well, in the title about Lift Every Voice and Sing, what does that mean to you?
Carpenter: Oh gosh, I don't think we have a long enough time in our interview window, but I think it's pretty plain speaking, you know. Lift every voice and sing. I think it's about the importance of music in community, for that matter, music and art, the things that lift us up, the things that allow us to feel connected to one another, and just speaking very plainly about lift every voice and sing. I'm sure you've had this experience. I'm sure your listeners have had this experience, but when we find ourselves with other people in, in situations where we are singing together, it's a powerful feeling. It's powerful, it's profound, it's emotional, it's redeeming, it's inspiring, and those words can I can go on and on with positive words like that, but I think in the times that we are living in, in these really, really difficult, polarizing times, this is, I need this personally, I need this, and I want it, and so that's what it means to me, briefly.
Dunne: You've basically done everything there is to do in your storied music career. But what appeal does touring still have for you?
Carpenter: It's about being together with other people. I mean, I could sit in my… well, here's an example. During the pandemic, I was home at my home for I almost two years without seeing other people, other than through a camera, a Zoom, whatever. And I started doing this, like many artists that I knew, I started doing a little sort of video series, a very, very informal video series called Songs from Home, where I would just literally set up my iPhone camera, because that's all I had, in different rooms around my house, once a week, twice a week, and play a song, you know, film a song being played, and then I'd write a little blurb about what the song was about, and then you know what books I had read that week, and what I was watching on television, and thinking about on my walks, and that sort of thing. If anything brought home, there's nothing like a pandemic to bring home the truth that to do that. Yes, you can do it through a screen, but it's never going to be the same thing as being together with people in a live music situation, and there's never going to be a substitute for that in my mind, and so it's it fills your emotional tank, it fills your inspiration tank, it fills all the things that that that makes us human here in our brief time on this earth, and so that's a very long-winded answer to your question, as to why do you keep touring. It's like, but it's like, I, this is what I do, it's, it's what makes me happy, it, what, what, it's what brings me joy, and as far as I'm concerned there should, there's no deadline or sort of shelf life to those feelings.
Dunne: Yeah, you do a lot of collaborations too. You collaborated with The Mountain Goats, is that kind of the same sort of feeling is to join with other musicians and see what kind of, what kind of product, what kind of magic you can make?
Carpenter: More, so now than ever before. When I was, you know, starting out, and you know, I've been doing this, as you say, a very long time, and you're just, you know, you're just working towards trying to get to the next place, literally and figuratively, but in the, in the life that I, I've, I've, I've been able to create for myself now, in the last few years, it's very exciting to, to work with other people, and to see what comes along. I loved working with John and the Mountain Goats on the sort of one off that we put out a few months ago, and then before that, last year, put out a record with my friends Karine Polwart and Julie Fowlis. They're two legendary Scottish singer songwriters and artists, and that was something that was, oh my gosh, I, and Josh Kaufman of Bonnie Light Horseman, and so many other projects, he produced it, and we, we recorded it over in England at Real World Studios, and that was that, that was just an experience that was dream-worthy. It was so much fun, and it just feels like a privilege at this point in time to be able to join with other people, and I feel like also every time you have a chance to work with other people, no matter how informal the setting, you learn things, you learn how to be a better musician, you learn how to be a better writer, you learn things, and I like to believe that no matter how old we, we are lucky to get, that we are, we never stop learning. That's the joy and the reward of doing this.
Dunne: You know, my wife and I, one of our favorite albums is Stones in the Rodent, and I was thinking back before knowing I was going to talk to you, because we'd listen to that album, and a lot of times we'd listen to it and discover new things about a song, and that leads to my question about this, which is, What's the difference between writing a song and telling a story through music.
Carpenter: I don't know if there's that much of a difference at all. Okay, honestly, I mean, I haven't really... I'd have to ponder that a little bit, Michael. Okay, and so in the time that we have, I don't have that much time to ponder it, but, but I'm just thinking it's like I think in general, I don't think there's a whole lot of daylight between those two things.
Dunne: Okay, as we've said, you've been doing this for a long time, been very successful, and you've entertained multiple generations of fans, what is it about your music, but also American folk, that that appeals to people who are listening to you in the late 80s, early 90s to today?
Carpenter: What is it that appeals to people who listened that long? Is that your question?
Dunne: Actually, it's the people who first discovered you, like I did back in the early 90s, but also younger people today who are rediscovering you.
Carpenter: Well, I don't know if I'm the person to have the perspective on that, you know. We, I'm just going to speak for myself, when I am moved or taken with someone's music, when I discover somebody new, or whatever, it's just, you know, people, we speak to different things in each other. I don't know why or how I find certain artists that just make me swoon, you know, but. You just know, you know, I mean, and you know, on the other side of that, you know, I'm sure everyone has heard someone say at one time, you know, you can't dance for everybody in the room, you have to, it doesn't, you can't appeal to everyone, that's just not possible, really, so somehow when you do connect with someone, a listener, it just to me, it's always just felt like a beautiful gift. And actually, I say this a lot, but this is true. You know, when somebody comes up to me, and they, I mean, I, I have friends, we, we love sad songs, for example, you know, just the sadder the better, you know. When someone comes up to you and says, "Oh, X song, blah blah blah song. I love that song, but I got to tell you, it just makes me cry. And when someone says that to me, I like, just want to embrace them and say, "Oh, I'm so glad. You know, that's great, the sadder the better. You know, it just allows us to be human, and allows us to respond, and allows us to feel things, and you know that can sound all very woo woo to people, but to me that's part of what it's all about. It's just, it's allowing ourselves to feel things.
Dunne: I want to talk quickly about you, your last album, Personal History. I read a review, and one of the things that the reviewer wrote was, you know, it's authentic, written from deep in the heart. You know, and I think your songs, they're pretty vulnerable. What's that like to be a songwriter, and, and I'm not saying it's everything's autobiographical, but I mean it's you express a real vulnerability in your music, and is that a challenge?
Carpenter: No, I don't think it's a challenge, I think it's just the way I've always regarded the practice of songwriting, in that you're telling true things, it's not, you know, people talk about art of any medium, any kind, as being often cathartic or illuminating. I think of songwriting, for example, as this - as a lot of the time, sort of excavating emotions and helping me figure out my place in the world, if you will. I don't think that vulnerability is, is, is anything but an asset, you know? I think it's, it's necessary to do what we do.
Dunne: Two last questions for you. You've succeeded as a woman in the music industry, but I imagine there have been challenges. Talk about what you've had to overcome, and I don't know. Do you think the industry has gotten more accessible for women from when you first started to today?
Carpenter: Again, I think this is a conversation that could go on much longer than we have time for, but yes, I mean, gosh, you know, I've, I've, I've run up against sexism, ageism, a lot of isms over the years, I mean, I think if I've been doing this as long as I have, it would be, you know, false to say that I haven't, but you know, it's just like anything else, you just keep believing in yourself and believing in what you have to say, and not letting the bastards get you down. I mean, what choice do you have?
Dunne: Your professional career, you've always mostly been the person being interviewed like you are now, but you've also done podcasts, and you've been able to question luminaries like Joan Baez. Talk about that. How did that sort of stretch your creativity to sort of reverse roles, if you will?
Carpenter: Well, it's, I mean, I have so much respect for people in your position, in your chair. It's not easy to get the, to get the truth out of people, you know, in a short amount of time, because it's scary to talk about things, and it's scary to ask questions, and it's all those things, and, and we all want to come across as intelligent, and you know, well read, and, and, and certainly able to speak to our guests on the other side of the microphone in a way that will be illuminating to the listeners, but I just, I'm a talker, so maybe that helps me. I don't know, but I've known Joan since I was 16 years old, and that's a whole other story. But she has been someone I work with, she's recorded a few of my songs, she's been so gracious and given me time to talk with her, and to learn from her, and to be inspired by her, in on stage, across from a microphone, in person. She's a jewel.
Dunne: Well, so are you, and you will be performing at the Hayden Homes Amphitheater in Bend, Oregon, on June 27 we've been speaking with Mary Chapin Carpenter. Really, a joy talking to you. Thanks so much for spending some time with us.
Carpenter: Michael. Such a pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Dunne: And we're back. I'm Michael Dunne, and you're listening to Oregon on the Record. Now, let's check in with our reporter about the on-again, off-again parade for Eugene Pride. Julia Boboc, reporter for us here at KLCC. Julia, thanks so much for coming in and talking with us.
Julia Boboc: Thanks for having me, Michael.
Dunne: Boy, kind of the local story of the day right now is the Pride parade. Talk about your coverage of what you found out between Eugene Pride, between the police, sort of what's going on.
Boboc: Yes, so Eugene Pride announced on Sunday that they were canceling their march and rally, not to be confused with the event as a whole, there's still a festival and everything, which is important to know about and remember, and go see, but yes, their rally in March, which has been going on for years, starting at Kesey Square, was canceled due to some unwillingness to work with the Eugene Police Department on permitting, which kind of sprouted from a distrust in the police department to keep the keep the event safe, keep the rally safe, and keep the people participating in the rally safe, especially after a little bit of counter protesting last year.
Dunne: Yeah, I was going to ask you about this. This didn't come out of nowhere. There were some, some - I'd say some tension last year. Is that fair to say?
Boboc: Yeah, and they specifically talked about last year, as well as protests in protest rallies and marches in the Eugene community that are unrelated directly to Pride, but to other issues that are important to the community, and the fact, and EPDs' potential involvement in those, and EPD support of other possibly unpermitted protests, and things like that. So, it's definitely not completely unfounded, and they had their concerns about working with the police to create a safe environment. There is going to be another rally, unpermitted, kind of unofficial, although it was posted on the Eugene Pride social media. That's going to occur essentially when the rally in March would have occurred, and EPD police chief Chris Skinner did say that EPD would be there in the vicinity of that rally, just to make sure that everything's okay, but because they're unable to plan ahead through the permitting process, he said that it would kind of be a game time sort of decision on intervention, and if things kind of come up, then they can, but people might be confused about why certain clothes, certain streets are closed, certain areas are inaccessible, and so that was kind of his concern with a lack of prior notice.
Dunne: What did the police tell you about the fact that Eugene Pride had said they don't trust the police, and, and so they, they were canceling the official rally in March. What did EPD tell you?
Boboc: Yeah, so an EPD spokesperson, Melinda McLaughlin, mentioned in a statement to us that EPD had been in contact with the organization Chief Skinner mentioned, you know, we kind of, we being the police department, kind of expected to have another situation similar to last year where we work together and we're able to permit the rally and let it happen officially and be prepared for it, but it seems like what EPD is saying is that they're focused on safety, they still want the rally and march, despite the fact that it's unpermitted, and PD said that the on a technicality, the people that are at this march and rally will be engaging in unpermitted behavior, but that they're not there to just go out and arrest people for being at this event, you know, First Amendment still exists, and things like that. So, Chief Skinner was definitely talking about, you know, the police will be at the rally and at the march. They will be keeping watch from a distance, as he said, and if there is need, if there's conflict, they will be there to make themselves available to keep everyone safe, but not in a way that they were able to last year through the permitting process.
Dunne: Okay, Julie, my last question for you is this: you know, from Eugene Pride's perspective, is this sort of isolated with the Eugene Police Department, or did they talk about because of the sort of the tenor and the tone in the nation right now that they felt like.
Boboc: This was a particularly troubling time to do a parade or march. It's different now in that people are able to display their pride in a way that they haven't been able to in previous years, and of course, as we're seeing in the nation, it's difficult to rally and march, and for a lot of different reasons, and in a lot of different ways, but he kind of flipped that sort of question on its head and talked about how important it is to have events like these, because people are able to do this and celebrate with each other, show queer joy with each other, and he specifically talked about, you know, seeing young people coming to these events and feeling free to be themselves for the first time, hold someone's hand for the first time, and so I think that's kind of another way of looking at it, is that Eugene Pride is specifically in this moment trying to find a place to fight against what national ideals might be trying to impede on, and instead using, you know, this month, this moment to show queer love and queer joy in Eugene in a safe way, and that seems like it's the priority on both sides.
Dunne: She's Julia Boboc, reporter for us here at KLCC. Julia, thanks so much.
Boboc: Thanks, Michael.
Dunne: That's the show for today. All episodes of Oregon On The Record are available as a podcast at KLCC.org. Monday on the show, we'll talk with ham radio operators in our region and hear why this is not just a hobby but a vital link in communications during a community-wide disaster. I'm Michael Dunne, host of Oregon On The Record. Thanks for listening.
