The following transcript was generated using automated transcription software for the accessibility and convenience of our audience. While we strive for accuracy, the automated process may introduce errors, omissions, or misinterpretations. This transcript is intended as a helpful companion to the original audio and should not be considered a verbatim record. For the most accurate representation, please refer to the audio recording.
MICHAEL DUNNE: I'm Michael Dunne. You'd be hard pressed to find a law in the United States more impactful and more popular than the Endangered Species Act. Yes, of course, there are special interest groups who represent extraction industries like mining and timber that have wanted to get rid of the law for decades so they can harvest ore or trees in a less regulated fashion. But overall, the public on both sides of the aisle routinely praises the act, but for the first time in its 50 years of existence, the act is in real jeopardy of being plowed under. Today on the show, you'll hear from two local representatives of a national organization, Defenders of Wildlife, and hear how the Trump administration has the act in its sights, and hear how they and the general public can fight back. Our conversation is next on Oregon On The Record.
A study published a few years ago showed that the Endangered Species Act has saved roughly 99% of protected wildlife since its creation in 1973, demonstrating the law has been overwhelmingly successful. For all the consternation about the lack of real progress from government, it's obvious that the act has done a lot of what it set out to do some 50 years ago. But could the Endangered Species Act be endangered itself? Today, on the show, you'll hear about real threats to this law, and you'll hear from an environmental organization that is working to ensure that the act and the species it protects nationally and here in Oregon, survive the Trump administration. Colin Reynolds and Joseph Vail. They're both members of the Northwest program of Defenders of Wildlife. Gentlemen, thanks so much for coming on and talking with us.
COLIN REYNOLDS and JOSEPH VAILE: Thanks for having us. Thank you so much
MICHAEL DUNNE: Colin. I'm just going to start with you. Why don't you just talk about what Defenders of Wildlife is and what you do.
COLIN REYNOLDS: Absolutely. First, thank you so much, Michael for having us on today. Defenders of Wildlife is a national conservation organization dedicated to the protection of all native animals and plants in their natural communities. We have staff all over the country, out in the field and also in Washington, DC. Joseph and I are members of the Northwest team, and we work primarily in Oregon and Washington, doing a variety of things, but with that sole focus on protecting native animals and plants within the states.
MICHAEL DUNNE: And then Joseph, you know, kind of remind folks about the Endangered Species Act, remind folks what that, you know, landmark law did, because we're going to get into that, the fact that it could be very much under threat, but go ahead and start from the beginning about what it does.
JOSEPH VAILE: Yeah, well, first, I think it's important to establish, what is biodiversity and why is it important? And perhaps that tells us, you know what, why we even need to protect endangered species and prevent extinction. And you know, I think first and foremost, biodiversity is this backbone of a healthy, functioning planet. It directly supports human survival. Think about in Oregon and beyond, species, they play an essential role in keeping ecosystems resilient. Like, for example, we know there's a variety of pollinators like bees and birds pollinate our crops, and without that ecosystem service, you know, we would be in trouble. Other species can help purify our water. And there's still others that have offered even medical breakthroughs for us. So, wildlife and plants, they provide us with tangible benefits. And there are, there are the backbone of our economy. You know, people also here in Oregon, we benefit from people coming from all over the world to see wildlife. People go whale watching off the coast of Oregon. They fish in our rivers. They go to see birds. Those people spend money in our restaurants, our lodges. And you know, this is, this is important to Oregon's economy. But, you know, take a species like the Oregon spotted frog, which is a species that is protected under the Endangered Species Act. It's a very sensitive amphibian that is closely tied to the health of slow-moving wetland habitats. And so, when those frogs decline, they're often like the canary in the coal mine. They're a red flag for a deeper ecological problem that we have. We have polluted water or drain wetlands, or if there's cattle, too much cattle grazing in those in the banks of those wetlands. The spotted frog tells us that by its, numbers are going down. So, it's not just about protecting the species, it's about restoring entire systems, like the wetland systems that support a variety of other species. So, I think that's important to just realize that these species are so important to us, but also that they're more than that. They're living beings with both millions of years of evolutionary history, they have ecological roles, and they just have an inherent right to exist. And I think that's what the Endangered Species Act really was, initially recognizing that we have a moral responsibility to protect species and to prevent extinction. And the Endangered Species Act, or what a lot of people just call the ESA, which you might hear us use that acronym here, really embodies that ethic and affirms that we have this duty to species that we share this earth with. And in Oregon, where we have ancient forests, and coastal areas. We have high desert plateaus, we have such a rich array of life, the ESA really helps safeguard those ecological systems, and ultimately stopping extinction is the morally right thing to do. So, I think that's really where the ESA came from. And I know Colin can maybe speak a little bit to like some of the legislative history, Michael, about how we got this law.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Yeah. Colin, go ahead. Talk about sort of the evolution of the ESA
COLIN REYNOLDS: Will do. The ESA was passed in 1973 and recently had its 50th anniversary. The ESA was unanimously approved out of the Senate and passed the house out of vote with 390 to 12. And at signing, President Nixon said, Nothing is more priceless and more worthy of preservation than the rich array of animal life with which our country has been blessed. It is a treasure of value to scholars, scientists and nature lovers alike, and it forms a vital part of the heritage we all share as Americans. So, the ESA the Endangered Species Act, it aims to protect recovered, endangered and threatened species. That's a term of art within the ESA endangered and threatened and minimizing the effects of federal and private actions on these species and their habitats. And simply put, Michael, you know, the ESA is America's single greatest tool to prevent species extinction. I mentioned that the ESA recently had an anniversary, and one of the benefits of having that amount of time is that we can now look to see, hey, how's this work? And it absolutely has. The ACT has a 99% success rate in preventing species extinction and it's helped in the conservation of so many kinds of species. For example, it saved the bald eagle. You know that was a species that was imperiled and is now, recovered across the country, and many of us see bald eagles in our daily lives. It's helping save the California condor. The population was as low as 22 in 1982 and today, there's over 500 birds. So, it's something that this is a generational project. Our neighbors, our parents, our brothers, our sisters, have participated in this basically whole of government, whole society effort to protect our most vulnerable species, and it's worked.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Let me reintroduce you both to the audience really quickly. Here we're talking with Colin Reynolds and Joseph Vaile. They're both part of the Northwest program of the National Organization Defenders of Wildlife. Joseph, I'll go to you because it's interesting. As Colin mentioned, a 50-year anniversary of the Endangered Species Act passed under a very conservative president, President Nixon. What's happening now with regard to threats to the ESA?
JOSEPH VAILE: Yeah, there are a variety of threats to the ESA. I mean, I think first, it's probably most important to just take a minute to realize where we are right now, especially with many of our friends at work in the federal government that have lost positions. And, you know, we're seeing a lot of people in the agencies that are responsible for protecting and restoring, recovering endangered species in the US, Fish and Wildlife Service or the National Marine Fishery Service have, either lost their jobs or been pushed out, or, you know, have otherwise, you know, lost funding. So, there's, you know, really a big threat to the protection of endangered species right now is how our federal government is being operated. Additionally, there's one that's a rule that recently came out from the Trump administration that proposed a change to the Endangered Species Act definition of the word harm, which might seem like a minor thing, just defining the word harm, but under this proposal, it would actually change how that word is defined in terms of not constituting habitat destruction. So, only direct injury or death of animals would be prohibited under the ESA under this this new definition of harm. So, for decades, federal agencies have interpreted harm broadly to include modified habitat, and this gets at when endangered species are allowed to be taken or issued take permits under the under the Endangered Species Act. But obviously we know today that habitat destruction is the leading cause of species decline, so this approach of protecting habitat has safeguarded old growth forest, wetlands, streams and other unique habitat for threatened, endangered species. And this was actually upheld in the Supreme Court by in a case in the 1990s it included that significant habitat modification that results in injury or death to wildlife constitutes harm. And the current proposal aligns with some dissenting views that the only thing that will take a species is when you're directly killing animals. And so, Defenders of Wildlife who strongly oppose this absurd idea that you know habitat destruction does not harm species So, for example, imagine being forced out of your home Michael and you saw it destroyed. It was bulldozed over, and then perhaps you were cut off from the food you needed to survive, you would probably feel harmed? Well, that's, you know, it's interesting, because if you look back, Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, made it clear that when habitat is modified or altered in a way that, as she put breeding, feeding or sheltering. You know that disruption leads to injury or death. So, you know this new rule that would redefine harm is one of the big threats to the Endangered Species Act right now. And of course, we're not even quite 100 days into this new administration. So, you know what? We'll see what more happens here in the coming days. But this, this opening salvo is not a good one.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Colin, there's a bill that's out right now that you have concerns about. Talk about that. Would you please.
COLIN REYNOLDS: Absolutely. So, this bill is titled The Endangered Species Act, amendments act of 2025. This bill is sponsored by a gentleman named Bruce Westermann, who's a representative from Arkansas. He's the chair of the House Natural Resources Committee. So, this bill, simply put, would just basically eviscerate the existing act as we know it. It does a lot of things. Michael. There's a provision that would eliminate the requirement for the federal government to ensure that it does not take action to destroy the critical habitat of an imperiled species that it’s charged to protect. It also slows down the process we call listing, which is the classification of a species as either threatened or endangered. It at the same time fast tracks the process for de listing or removing protections for endangered species. this is just a part of this bill within a larger set series of attacks. This bill is just one of 17 pieces of legislation that has been introduced to undermine the ESA. And Joseph also mentioned the cuts to the Department of Interior, who you know, use agencies, the Fish and Wildlife Service and the National Marines Fisheries Service, administer the ESA, you know, removing funding, removing capacity, basically removing the ability of these agencies to do their jobs.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Joseph, remind people, as I understand it, the ESA, the Endangered Species Act, is a wildly popular law, isn't it, amongst both liberals and conservatives.
JOSEPH VAILE: It is. I mean, we see, you know, poll after poll there's a huge bipartisan support. I think the last poll showed 95% of the electorate supports the Endangered Species Act. And, you know, you start digging in. I mean, there's even broad support for biodiversity. You know, people recognize the importance of biodiversity, the variety of plants and animals that make up ecosystems, that those are all important to people, even for their everyday lives. And you know, I think people recognize that,
you know, we need this kind of biodiversity to maintain life on Earth. So, yes, you're right. It is, it is wildly popular. I think there are probably just some interests certainly that would like to fast track certain activities that see, some of these plants and animals are getting in the way of their interests and are using some of these ideas to weaken protection for threatened and endangered species.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Yeah. Colin, maybe if you could talk to our audience about what are some of your biggest concerns for Northwest species? What are some of the animals and plants that you're fearful if some of if these pushes to denude the power of the ESA go forth? What are some of those species that you have grave concerns about?
COLIN REYNOLDS: Well, Michael, we have concerns for much of the northwest, you know, thinking about humpback whale protections off the coast. You know, these species transit Oregon waters, and you know that that's just one concern we have is, is how, how reductions of protections could affect whales. Also, southern resident killer whales that transit the coast as well. We also have concerns about how we can protect any number of birds within Oregon and any number of amphibians and reptiles. Joseph mentioned the Oregon spotted frog species. And then finally, any number of fish that transit our waterways, you know, from steelhead to sockeye salmon to coho salmon. You know, people come from all over the country in the world, as Joseph mentioned, to recreate in Oregon, to fish, to see these species., and it's troubling that these protections may weaken.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Joseph, what can people do? I'm sure that many of our listeners are thinking, you know, give us some guidance here as to what regular citizens can do to help this protective effort.
JOSEPH VAILE: Thank you for asking that, Michael. I'm always looking for what to do. And you know, I love this quote that action is the antidote to despair. So, taking action always makes me feel a little better. One thing I would note is that on the proposed rule that would redefine harm as not including destruction of habitat, there is an open comment period right now. I'm sure if you use your Google, you can find your way to that or certainly you can go on to The Defenders of Wildlife website and find a way to engage. But that comment period is open until May 19. So, I would, I would definitely speak up and make your voice heard there. I would also encourage folks to write their congressional representatives, you know, I think right now, they're very narrow margins there in Congress and just speaking up and letting their congressional representatives know how they feel about the importance of the Endangered Species Act and that it needs to be protected. But also go to your elected officials and let them know how you feel.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Good enough. Good enough. Colin Reynolds and Joseph Vaile, they are both members of the Northwest program of the National Organization Defenders of Wildlife. Gentlemen, really appreciate you coming on and talking about this, this threat to our endangered species and our environment in general.
COLIN AND JOSEPH: Thank you so much, Michael.
MICHAEL DUNNE that's the show for today. All episodes of organ on the record are available as a podcast klcc.org. Tomorrow, on the show, we'll check in with the good doctor, Dr Patrick Luedtke of Lane County Public Health about a concerning uptick in a strain of bacteria that is rearing its ugly head here in our community. I'm Michael Dunne, and this has been Oregon on the record from KLCC. Thanks for listening.
