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MICHAEL DUNNE: I'm Michael Dunne. Books are tremendous things. They're recorders of all things, provocateurs of ideas and instruction manuals on anything and everything humans can imagine. And libraries, both public libraries and school libraries, are the sacred houses for these amazing things. Yet, of course, books, really, since we began printing them, can be vessels of controversy, and lately, those who find books controversial and want to ban them are honing in on both subject matter and authorship, especially related to LGBTQ+, today on the show, you'll hear from two voices. The first is a state representative who is sponsoring a bill to disallow book bans based on being by or about members of a protected class. The second is the head of the Eugene public library who lives the battle to ban books each and every day. It's one thing to object to a book and decide not to read it. It's another thing to object to a book and decide others shouldn't read it. But that's what book challenges and book bans are today. On the show, you'll hear about how book bans come about, why, in our present moment, this action is so focused on LGBTQ+ authors and subjects, and how the Oregon legislature is banning book bans. Quick note, we did reach out to a Republican representative who voted against the bill but were not able to schedule an interview. State Representative Travis Nelson, thanks so much for coming on the program.
REP. TRAVIS NELSON: Great to be with you.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Why don't you go ahead and tell us about Senate Bill 1098 what? What would it do?
REP. TRAVIS NELSON: Fundamentally, Senate Bill 1098 is a bill that stands against discrimination, censorship and the erasure of diverse voices. And basically, what the bill would say is it would be illegal for school libraries or school districts to ban books simply because the author or characters are from a protected class.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Why did you want to co-sponsor this bill. Why did you feel it was necessary now to introduce this bill in the Oregon Legislature?
REP. TRAVIS NELSON: I worked closely with Senator Lou Frederick on this bill. This is not the first session. We've tried to get this across the finish line. It was brought last short session as well, and we really wanted to get this enshrined into Oregon law, because it is not explicitly clear that books are protected from discrimination in this way. And the 2023, 24 academic years, we saw a record number of book bans across the nation, and we don't want that happening in Oregon, so we took this action of putting the bill forward, and I'm glad that it made it across the finish line.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Can you kind of give listeners an overview of both book bans and book challenges, you know, here in Oregon, but also across the nation?
REP. TRAVIS NELSON: As it relates to specific examples of book bans here in Oregon, I don't have any at the tip of my finger. I do know, I believe it's the school library association has flagged books that have been flagged by parents for removal, and a lot of these books are books that we don't think of as being books that you wouldn't want your child to necessarily read, right? So, looks like The Handmaid's Tale or Judy Blume's Forever, or The Bluest Eye, or the type of books that have been banned across the United States, and I believe at least one of those has been flagged for removal somewhere in Oregon,
MICHAEL DUNNE: Maybe also tell us what the legislation doesn't do. Because, as I understand it, it's not like this is just throwing open the doors and any kind of book could be,
you know, protected from, say, the ways in which a library might look at a book and say, Okay, this material could be detrimental to young people, for example.
REP. TRAVIS NELSON: Yes. This bill does not mandate what materials can be presented. It still says that, you know, if a book is age inappropriate, that that book can be removed or taken out of use as well. This really is meant to ensure that books are not removed due to unlawful discrimination, and I'm happy to say that librarians across the state have been amongst the biggest champions of this bill, and have been extremely supportive by and large.
MICHAEL DUNNE: What have you learned about, I guess I would say the other side of this issue, or the voices that want to ban books. What are some of the things that they say, or you've heard them say, or perhaps, you know, colleagues of yours on perhaps the other side of the aisle who've spoken out against it. What are some of their arguments?
REP. TRAVIS NELSON: Well, I think people look at localities having the ability to say what books are and aren't available to be accessed by children, that that really should be a local decision, and is a decision that should be exclusively made by parents and community members. And while I definitely think parents should be involved in that type of decision, as well as school officials, I also think it's important that we do not ban books because the author is somebody from a protected class, so meaning the author perhaps is African American, or just because the author might be gay or lesbian, or because there's characters in the book that are gay or lesbian, those are not reasons why a book should be banned, and that, in and of itself, is not something that would fall under the age appropriateness guideline, just a character being somebody who is gay or lesbian shouldn't fall under that type of standard, because being LGBTQ plus is a protected class in our state.
MICHAEL DUNNE: I'm wondering there's been so much activity from the federal government, specifically the White House, on issues like this, do you anticipate that this Bill, might be suddenly fodder on the President's social media platform or other types of things from the federal government and the White House that might create some headaches or challenges for you and your colleagues here in Oregon?
REP. TRAVIS NELSON: Well, nothing that comes from the White House these days, surprises me. I'm just going to start there. There are a lot of things happening in our country right now, including what happened to Senator Alex Padilla today that shocked me, stunned me. So, it would not surprise me if Trump tried to try to use this bill as some type of a lightning rod that said, I think that would be hard to do, because this bill falls in alignment with both federal law and our state law, as it relates to books related to folks who are part of a protected class. So, it wouldn't surprise me if Trump or some other group tried to make this bill a lightning rod. It really is a simple, straightforward bill that protects kids’ ability to access reading materials related to folks who are in protected classes. I know I'm somebody who, as a child, loved to read. I was born in rural Louisiana. I moved to rural eastern Washington when I was a kid. Those two places are about as different as you can get while staying within the United States. And I always loved to read books as a kid that took me somewhere else, that taught me about another culture, and this bill protects that for other children.
MICHAEL DUNNE: I know with this bill, you're joining other states, Colorado, California, Illinois, New Jersey, Vermont, some others as well that have, have, have similar bills. Have passed similar laws. And I'm wondering, obviously you talk a lot with your colleagues here in Oregon, but I would imagine that you talk with colleagues in these states that passed these kinds of this type of legislation, but perhaps even talked to colleagues in states that are much more amenable to book bans. I was just curious if you could share with the audience what are some of your colleagues saying about book bans, book challenges in general, in other states outside of Oregon?
REP. TRAVIS NELSON: Well, I know that book bans are definitely something that are worrying folks who are in political office across the country, as it relates to similar bills that have been passed in other states. To be frank, I haven't personally had a lot of those conversations. I do have great relationships with some legislators in both California and Washington, but this particular bill is not something that I've had a whole lot of discussion about. That said, I do know that legislators are very concerned, and I would not be surprised if many other states followed our not necessarily our lead, but follow what we did in passing a bill like this in Oregon, so that their states and the children in their states can have their right to read and access the materials of their choosing protected as well.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Okay. Representative, my last question for you is, sort of how this fits in with the other sort of issue that has been very well covered and very shocking for many is sort of this, this idea that diversity, equity and inclusion are terrible things that need to be stamped out. When I'm talking specifically about executive orders and presidential actions. How do you see this bill kind of fitting in with the idea of standing up to that kind of attack on something like DEI?
REP. TRAVIS NELSON: DEI is under attack, but I try to remind folks that DEI stands for diversity, equity and inclusion. Those are things that none of us should be against. Those are things that make our country stronger.
MICHAEL DUNNE: State Representative Travis Nelson really appreciate you taking the time out to talk with us. Thank you so much.
REP. TRAVIS NELSON: You're very welcome. Good talking to you.
MICHAEL DUNNE: The Eugene Public Library is a critical part of the community. Now you'll hear from its leader and hear how book bands play out there, Angela Ocana, who's the head of the Eugene Public Library. Thanks so much for coming in and talking to us.
ANGELA OCANA: Thank you for having me.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Generally speaking, I think just so people kind of understand, you know, what's the process that you and your team sort of place books, especially, you know, children's books or young adult books. How do you kind of decide what goes where?
ANGELA OCANA: Yeah, every library should ideally have a collection development policy, okay, that's usually created by librarians and management together to really determine what value a collection may have. Who's the target audience? What kind of books? What's the focus? Usually, that's done with the community. Oh, we see that we want these types of books, or we want these types of books. So, for example, Eugene Public Library around language collection really working with our immersion schools and looking at that collection. But ideally, everybody is purchasing based on the standards in that collection development policy. And when you purchase a group of books, is there a national organization? Is there something that says, Oh, we think it should go here. Absolutely you can find things that you bring in catalog records that kind of give you an area. There's World CAD that tells you, generally where people have placed them, but initially it's our selectors looking at the recommendations and the reviews. So, our materials are vetted through, usually School Library Journal or Kirkus. There are different journals that kind of tell you where they go, and the publisher makes an age recommendation, and based on that, is where we end up placing the material.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Could detail what the criteria is, let's say young adults, is there sort of a set of guidelines that makes sense for young adults? Or maybe not?
ANGELA OCANA: Yeah, you've picked one of the more interesting collections. When you're talking about young adults, you're talking about ages that end in teens. So usually, it's 13 to 19. But that gets a little dicey, because what a 13-year-old is reading might be very different than what an 18-year-old is reading. And so, our selectors kind of look at, you know, what's the content of sex or violence, profanity, not necessarily intense topics, because we want the reader to be able to navigate intense topics and think about the worldview that they see. But that's a collection, specifically that is one of the hardest because it's always toeing the line of, is this actually for youngsters, or is this for older adults? And some authors, fascinatingly enough, will start writing a book that gets placed in teens. And as the series goes along, we find it to be more adult. The author's taken a turn, and so we may move that collection
MICHAEL DUNNE: In the course of your career has there been an elasticity to how books are assigned. Maybe something like, earlier in your career might have been, oh, maybe that should be more adult fiction, but now it's younger adult?
ANGELA OCANA: Absolutely like, when you look at what the level of tolerance might be, it's we tend to be a little more cautious, I think, when we're involving kids’ books and whether it belongs an adult, but we've had series that we have when I first started, we placed in the teen section that really were meant for fifth and sixth graders, but initially were like, Oh, it's a fantasy epic, and there's like, somebody dies that really should be in teen. And that's not necessarily where we are right now. So, one of the nice parts is being able to move collections based on more understanding from the community. It's one of the reasons we started a new collection at the library that really addresses that 10- to 12-year-old range that's kind of in between. So, we'll be starting a new section that focuses on that, just based on the need that we see of younger kids wanting to read teen books, but being overwhelmed by the selection and dancing on that line of like, what is appropriate for a 12-year-old versus what's appropriate for a 17-year-old.
MICHAEL DUNNE: I see, I see, maybe walk us through, you know, in your career now, and also in other times in your career, sort of how a book gets challenged, you know, kind of what does it look like? Does someone literally just walk through the front doors and say, I don't like this book? I mean, how does it kind of work?
ANGELA OCANA: Well, you know, I've been working in intellectual freedom for, you know, the last five to eight years. I was the chair of the intellectual freedom round table with the American Library Association. I was doing a lot of that work. What's really different between the public libraries vs. the school libraries is that public libraries are often yelling, shouting, I don't want this book, here you go. Or it's a form they fill out. But really, school libraries have had much more of an uphill challenge, just in terms of how often a parent or an organization wants to challenge a book, leading to selectors for those school libraries not even wanting to deal with it and not even purchasing the book interesting. It's kind of this silent censorship that exists where a teacher says, I'm not comfortable. I know the parents, I know they're not going to agree with this book, so I'm just not going to buy it. That doesn't really happen in public libraries. We have to, we have to watch, still, it does happen in some way. Somebody may have an initial reaction to, who's ever in office? Oh, I don't want to buy these books. I hate that person, but that's something we have to get over. And in the public setting, often you're looking at degreed librarians, and in the school sector, you're looking at maybe it's a parent who's overseeing the library, right? Sure, funding for schools is often one of the first cut in libraries. So, when you're talking about specifically challenged books, the process looks really different, and public libraries tend to have a really great reconsideration policy. It's kind of what I look like for the new organ law that's on Governor Kotek’s desk is it looks like a reconsideration policy with a lot of boundaries that really help school libraries, that say, Hey, we're not going to do this or this.
MICHAEL DUNNE: With regard to that bill, do you think it's going to help school librarians, kind of, you know, be able to have something if the Governor signs it on the books, saying, Okay, this is now state law, and so I'm following state law?
ANGELA OCANA: Yeah, what I appreciate about it is that it gives some good guardrails without being overly restrictive. Okay? It doesn't say no, no, no. It says we want to be inclusive, get as many voices into the public library as possible. But it still allows parents and folks who are working staff that are in that school, the ability to say, hey, maybe we made a mistake. Maybe this book shouldn't be here, or maybe this one belongs in a high school. So, I love that it still gives power and authority to parents and staff to look at their collection in a meaningful way. But it does do a thing, which I'm very appreciative if we had to change our policy here at Eugene, just when we look at that reconsideration policy of outside organizations from out of state, not from within the district, coming in and telling, hey, we don't want this book. Well, that's great. I don't live in your county, I don't live in your city, I don't have a library card. I'm from a different state. I don't want you to have these books. And so, I think this law allows school libraries to build a framework that says, actually, if you don't have a stake in the game here, we're not going to listen to what you have to say, but we are going to listen to the parents and the teachers who do have kids in this school or who do have stake in the game.
MICHAEL DUNNE: From your experience, especially today, is there a certain kind of a book that tends to be the one that gets the most challenged from the public?
ANGELA OCANA: Absolutely. Nationally, we've seen trends. I think this year was the first year nationally we saw a decline in challenges. Really exploded in 2020 we're still not at levels prior to 2020, on a national level, and you're starting to see that trickle down into Oregon. So last year, Oregon had its largest number of challenged materials, and disproportionately those titles challenged are by Queer and BIPOC authors that don't match. If you were to look at what publishing the industry as a whole has come to. Out with so disproportionately Queer, marginalized voices in the publishing world, a much smaller number. Feels weird that we have a very large number of those books then being challenged. I think the ALA American Library Association's top 10 challenged books for the last five years have predominantly the books have been either by written from queer experiences, black, indigenous people of color experiences, and so it's, we're kind of saying the quiet part out loud when we look at those challenges of what kind of materials folks don't want in their libraries.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Angela, my last question for you, I think a phrase you said about, you know, kind of expanding ideas. I kind of wanted to get from you - what makes a library great?
ANGELA OCANA: Wow. What a great question. What makes a library great? You know, I because the law is top of mind that's going to the governor's desk. I really appreciated the lone Republican who stood out and said, Hey, actually, I'm voting in favor of this bill and that they have a gay son. And said, you know, we shouldn't be afraid of the books that are in the collection. We shouldn't be afraid of those experiences that children want to read. This is how my child identified and helped, like, learn about themselves. And for me, that's a great library. It should have something for everybody, even if that makes you a little uncomfortable, whether that's alt right politics, queer politics, stories about fairies and dragons, the library should have something for everyone, and not everyone is going to agree. And I actually think that that level of back and forth. We don't agree about a thing, that book does belong in your library. That's a conversation you should have. So, for me, what makes a library great is people coming in and finding themselves reflected in that collection, no matter where they stand.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Well said, well said. Angela Ocana, it's always great to talk to you - the head of the Eugene Public Library. Thanks for coming in.
ANGELA OCANA: Thanks for having me on
MICHAEL DUNNE: That’s the show for today. All episodes of organ on the record are available as a podcast at KLCC.org. Tomorrow on the show, you'll hear from a local organizer of recent protests against ice whose brutal tactics have captured the attention of the community, state, nation and world. I'm Michael Dunne, and this has been organ on the record from KLCC, thanks for listening.
