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MICHAEL DUNNE: I'm Michael Dunne. The Pacific Ocean is a huge expanse, so big, in fact, that it can hide something universally famous and much sought after for nearly a century. Indeed, even though researchers have discovered the last resting places of the Titanic and other famous ships, one of the most famous aircrafts in history, the location of Amelia Earhart's plane still remains a mystery, but perhaps a local organization may unlock that mystery after all. Today on the show, you'll get an update from Eugene's archeological legacy Institute, which believes it's uncovered the last resting place of Earhart's Electra aircraft. And in the second part of the show, you'll get an update on congressional funding cuts to public media from KLCC, GM, Jim Rondeau. Dr Richard Pettigrew, the executive director for the Archeological Legacy Institute, thanks so much for coming in and talking with us again.
RICK PETTIGREW: It's a pleasure. Thanks for the invitation.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Okay, last time you were on our air and you talked about this, this fascinating thing, the Taraia Object, would you just remind our listeners about what it is?
RICK PETTIGREW: Well, it's, it's a thing that we see in satellite imagery. Often referred to as an anomaly, okay? It's something that shouldn't be there. And so, I mean, it's what it was when, when we talked about it in January, it was seen initially in satellite images in 2020 okay? And we discovered later by looking at lots more satellite images that it became visible starting in 2015 after a big storm.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Let me stop you too. It's, it's on an atoll, right?
RICK PETTIGREW: Exactly. It's a beautiful, classic coral atoll sitting on top of an ancient volcano. Okay? They got worn down by the waves, and coral built up on it, and it formed a ring of land around a cavity in the middle, which is the lagoon.
MICHAEL DUNNE: And I forget too, how close is it?
RICK PETTIGREW It's in the South Pacific midway between Australia and Hawaii. It's a remote place. It's one of the remotest places you could ever imagine.
MICHAEL DUNNE: And to remind our listeners, you kind of, you and your team kind of look through this historical record of this Atoll, and you've looked at it, looked at satellite imagery, and you formed a hypothesis. Remind our listeners what that hypothesis is?
RICK PETTIGREW: Well, it's based on the Nicomaru hypothesis that had been proposed for many years by the International Group for historic aircraft recovery. They've compiled a lot of evidence that demonstrates that Amelia Earhart and her navigator, Fred Noonan, ended up on Nicomaru Island. Lots of our artifacts have been found. There's a lot of evidence for it. We're simply following up beyond going beyond that. The Taraia object is further evidence, I think, but we won't be able to determine that until we actually go there and look at it. Okay? But if it is what I think it is, it is the remains of the Electra aircraft that Amelia and Fred flew back then in 1937.
MICHAEL DUNNE: So, between January and now, give us an update on what you've been doing. And kind of, you know, give us an update on what's been happening.
RICK PETTIGREW: We went public with that, including the interview with you back in January, in order to widen the circle of people who were familiar with the project, because, frankly, because we needed to expand our fundraising effort. Sure, and it worked. Okay? It worked. I mean, we got a lot of media attention at that time, and along the way, we made contact with Purdue University. Now, Purdue University was one of two places that might be a logical place for any records that we find to end up Okay, the other being the Smithsonian Institution, okay. But when I contacted Purdue, they were very excited about it, so we've been following up with them and working very closely with them, and we formed a partnership with them, and they're helping us in many ways, including helping us spread the word for our fundraising effort.
MICHAEL DUNNE: And you said, that's going well. So talk about okay, and you don't need to get specific on how much you might need, but it. If you get the funding necessary. What happens next?
RICK PETTIGREW: Well, our plan is to go to the island in November. In fact, I've already reserved the boat to carry our people in November next year, we're planning to disembark from or to embark from Majuro Marshall Islands on November 5 and return by November 21 it takes six days to sail from there to Nicomaru. So we're going to be getting our sea legs over a period of six days. Then we're planning to be on the island or back and forth to the island over a period of five days to gather the information that we need to identify what it is.
MICHAEL DUNNE: What will that look like when you get there? Can you kind of walk us through what the expedition will look like? What will it need to do?
RICK PETTIGREW: Well, we have on the order of a dozen people. We'll be going back and forth to the island in a smaller boat, a launch, if you will. There's a narrow channel that was blasted out by the British back in 63 that'll access the beach. We walk on a trail across the first stretch of land to the lagoon. We have another boat brought around into the lagoon, so we can ferry back and forth to the opposite shore of the lagoon, which is where the tri object site is located. So every day, we go from the ship to the shore to the lagoon, across the lagoon to the site, and then back again, the site is situated alongside a sand spit. Okay, there's no shade there, so we're going to have to bring our own shelter and shade. Okay? But every day, we're going to be examining the object. We're first going to begin by doing photography, doing everything we can do without disturbing the sediment that's there, because it's very fine sediment. As soon as you roll it up, visibility goes down, so we're going to look at it very carefully, photographically. We're going to use remote sensing, like side scan, sonar, magnetometry, and then start the physical process of actually probing the sediment to contact it. And then once we are very confident about its precise location beneath the settlement. Then we use a dredge, a suction dredge, to pull sediment off the top of it, and enough for us to look at what the object actually is and identify what it is.
MICHAEL DUNNE: How will you identify it? I mean, I apologize for the dumb question, are you hoping that you'll see some sort of, some sort of writing that identifies it as an electro aircraft. Or is there, are there? Are there certain characteristics that you know? Okay? That could only be the Electra that you've been looking for, right?
RICK PETTIGREW: Of course, one would love to see insignia like on the side of the fuselage or something. I think that's unrealistic. Okay? So probably will be relying upon the shape of the object, the shape and the physical characteristics of the object. It was an aluminum aircraft, a very specific design, and one that we have studied a lot. So, once we've uncovered a bit of it, I think we'll have a very good idea whether it is the Electra or something entirely different.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Maybe this is hypothetical, but I'm wondering if, once you do all of your tests and you know you prove it's there, is the plan that you might excavate it and bring it back to civilization. I don't know how that sort of works.
RICK PETTIGREW: Certainly not on this trip. Okay, this is a very, very narrow scope. Okay, this visit, we're still there to identify it. Once we've identified it, then we would come back the following year prepared to do a full-scale archeological excavation, similar to what you're familiar with from underwater archeology of a shipwreck. Okay, although this is very shallow, it's still underwater. So we would plan to do a full scale archeological excavation in the following year, ideally in July of 26 okay. Now, recovery, of course, is a goal. We would have to assess the possibilities of recovery after we've done some excavation, then possibly in a subsequent season, or maybe in a continuing season we haven't figured that out, then we would work to recover it, which would take a major, a major effort, which it goes well beyond the archeological excavation.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Sure. And then in terms of verification of the object, you know, I imagine, once you do all of your tests, is there an official body that would then sort of examine your evidence and, and I know, I know you're, you're a PhD. I know you had to defend your PhD. Is it kind of like that? You have to defend the evidence that you find?
RICK PETTIGREW: Honestly, I don't really think so it's going to be like that. I think when we come back, we'll have definitive evidence. I see we'll document the physical characteristics of the object, the shape of the object. We'll have remote sensing, you know, data in terms of the shape of the object. I don't think there will be any doubt, okay, I certainly hope not. I mean, I the whole point of this is to go there and gather that evidence.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Okay, I think I asked you this last time, but I think, I think it bears repeating: What do you think it'll mean to society, culture, if you definitively prove that this is an object that, let's be honest. I mean, it's one of the great mysteries of the 20th century. What do you think it'll mean for humankind, for science, for expeditions, for archeology?
RICK PETTIGREW: Well, right now, it's a question. What happened to Amelia Earhart, and hopefully after we're done, we'll solve that mystery. It doesn't mean it's the end of the story, because there's still lots to learn about what happened there. So, I think to the extent people are happy with having a mystery solved, I think we've made an accomplishment. We've made a contribution. Maybe there's a downside, because people love mysteries, so we'll destroy the mystery aspect of it, perhaps. But I think you know, gathering information about what actually happened in history is important for everybody in the future.
MICHAEL DUNNE: You've mentioned seasons a couple of times. Is there a better time than other times of the year to do what you need to do? I don't know much about sort of the weather patterns for the South Pacific, right?
RICK PETTIGREW: It's not, not really a matter of comfort, because it's hot. They're hot and muggy and challenging anyway. But there is a storm season, although storms don't happen frequently on the Camaro there are storms, and they tend to actually begin in November. But the main part of the storm season would be February, January in that area. So, July is probably the minimum.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Have you thought about how they could have landed on this atoll and survived? I know that that's maybe immaterial now, but I think people do wonder, was it a fatal accident, and that's what happened, or possibly that they were able to land safely and were marooned for any amount of time?
RICK PETTIGREW: Yeah, of course, we all wonder about that. Yeah, when we, when we go there and identify the object, I think it'll, it'll basically confirm what has already been hypothesized about her landing on the island. It won't tell us how she died, show us how she and Fred died. We can still only surmise that, yeah, just from knowing about the island. You know, water is a problem, disease, you know, infection is a problem, food is not a problem, but you know, liquids are a problem.
MICHAEL DUNNE: And this is maybe a, again, a hypothetical, but also maybe a fun question. I mean, is something like this why you got into archeology?
RICK PETTIGREW: Well, yeah, I love mysteries. I mean, I love solving puzzles. I love investigating, you know, situations. I mean, I love learning about the past, and I love sharing that information with people. I think that's really the reason why I got into it certainly wasn't for the money.
MICHAEL DUNNE: But last question for you is this sort of, you know, looking back on it, you know, her historic voyage to try and do this, and you know she did not succeed, but, but given what she did and, and, yes, somewhere along the line, you know, the journey ended. But do you think that what she tried to do still was, even though it didn't succeed in terms of the terms that she wanted to which still was very important for just archeology, history, just moving human beings forward?
RICK PETTIGREW: Well, I think that it's very important. I mean, she would make a point about the capabilities of women in particular, although what she was doing is something nobody else had ever done, sure she set records that nobody had done, regardless of what their sex might have been. And she was symbolic. In that sense, she was highly respected, and she was highly honored because of what she was doing. She was very, very out in the open about showing what somebody could do, male or female, and that was part of the reason why she was a hero. She had at least two ticker tape parades in New York City. She was very well known. This was 1937. We know that women's rights have come a long time since then, but even then, it was a big topic of conversation. After all, when she was a little girl, a young woman, women didn't even have the vote.
MICHAEL DUNNE: That's a great point. Well, we will check in with you when all the funding gets secured, and you're off, and maybe we can even do a satellite link up from the atoll Dr Richard Pettigrew, who is the Executive Director of the archeological legacy Institute here in Eugene. Thanks so much again for coming in and talking with us.
RICK PETTIGREW: My pleasure. Thank you. Let's now talk with our boss here at KLCC and get an update on congressional action and cuts to public media. Jim Rondeau. KLCC General Manager, thanks for coming downstairs and talking with us for a few minutes.
JIM RONDEAU: It was a long journey, Michael, and I'm glad to be here!
MICHAEL DUNNE: Let's start with this. Could you kind of do a little NPR funding? 101? How is a station like KLCC funded?
JIM RONDEAU: The first thing to know is that KLCC is primarily funded by the local public. And sometimes, when we get into this mix of talking about federal funding, people think, well, that's what we mean by public. No, we mean by public that primarily our funding comes from you. 90% of it just about either comes from local donors or local businesses. The Federal piece that we've been talking a lot about is actually about for us, 10% of the budget, generally something around $300,000 a year. It's been more than that. It's been less than that. And that little piece of the budget that comes from federal dollars over the years was part of a pact that the government came up with back in 1967 to provide things like universal access, to provide the kinds of educational programming opportunities that the commercial world wouldn't be likely to be sort of a greenhouse for sure, and to reach out to some rural communities where, frankly, it just doesn't make a lot of sense for a commercial radio or television station to set up shop. So, we are primarily funded by people who, believe it or not, go online or pick up the phone and say, Yes, I can spare $100 this year. Sometimes it's $1,000 you know, we love our monthly sustaining members, and those can be any amount. I've seen 500. You know, I don't know if we have 1000 but we have people who give $500 a month or $10 a month at whatever your means is. But generally, that's how, that's how it works.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Obviously here in Eugene or in the Portland metro area, people tune in because, you know, they want to listen to an NPR station or a local station. But there's a lot of choices in terms of radio content. But that's not always the case in rural America or even rural Oregon. Is that true?
JIM RONDEAU: There are places where you can listen to KLCC, and you probably don't have any other choice of a news station that does. I guess what we would call straight ahead news. You might have an am station that's primarily opinion, and there's some level of information there and varying degrees of accuracy. I'm sure there are certainly some smaller towns in Oregon and America where they do have some local operations that are generally not part of a big chain, and certainly have their local community service is central to what they do, even though they are a commercial operation, but there are places certainly where KLCC is the lifeline, and we talk to folks all the time who say that it has been so important for them to have access to the national coverage through NPR, and then what our local newsroom can bring to the table as well.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Go ahead and kind of give, give folks, sort of the 101, on this rescission package, talk about what happened, what the vote was, and sort of what it means for NPR and for KLCC.
JIM RONDEAU: Well, there's, there are all kinds, kind of like explaining a tax form, in a way, but the public media world insulates it from political upheaval and the whims of any political moment. For many years it has been forward funded. In other words, in 2024 they decided how much funding public media would get in 2026 what they just did with the rescission package, essentially was take back what Congress had already voted to provide so for KLCC and every other public media station that receives Corporation for Public Broadcasting funding, the vote means that In the coming year, the dollars that were budgeted to cover expenses for the coming year just won't be there. The federal government's fiscal year starts October 1, and so the new round of cash support that would have been expected in the federal government's next fiscal year will not be distributed to local stations. So for us, it's about 10% of the budget, and certainly we are going to feel that, and it's going to make things tight this year, next year, the year after that, going forward, it's really a multiyear problem. There are other stations that, particularly in rural communities, are far more dependent on it than we are, and for them, it really, truly could be catastrophic, and we really worry about the integrity of the nationwide system. As a result,
MICHAEL DUNNE: We do pledge drives; we do asks of members and whatnot. But I am wondering, you know, just in terms of okay, people know this happened, listeners, supporters, whatnot. What else can people do if they value not just KLCC, but NPR, but also just value the kind of journalism you just talked about?
JIM RONDEAU: Well, you know, we face the same problem that the news business in general faces, and that is since the internet arrived and information was widely available. Some of it, you know, some of it. When they say information, we're putting it in quotes. It could be accurate or it could be just someone's opinion. We don't know sometimes what we're consuming, but by and large, people, even many times, who say they value quality information, quality news coverage, aren't willing to pay for it. And it's 90% of the world, to be honest with you, Michael, the folks listening to us right now who are contributing members of KLCC probably also subscribe to local newspapers and magazines and various other news sources to keep it going. But any of us who want access to that information is the kind of information that only real reporters can go out and gather by sitting through council meetings, by digging through public records requests by answering the tip line phones and following up on sometimes stories that don't become stories. If you want professional journalism to do that, to shed a light on the government and introduce you to people in your community that you might know be intrigued to know you really have to be able to be willing to pay something for it, and that's the crisis that the entire news business is facing right now. It's one of the reasons local newspapers, in some cases, have shuttered, even the local, you know, even the television news business, I won't say specifically locally, but on a national level, we've seen newsrooms TV newsrooms shut down. It really is a crisis, and if we believe that it's part of thriving democracy to have access to information from sources that we can verify and a place for us all to gather sort of a common understanding of the world that will help us move forward in a reasonable direction, we all have to, I think, gird ourselves to pay something for it, not always necessarily from your public media station, but some other source that you really value.
MICHAEL DUNNE: Jim Rondeau, KLCC, General Manager, thanks for coming in and talking with us.
JIM RONDEAU: Thank you, Michael.
MICHAEL DUNNE: That's the show for today. All episodes of Oregon On The Record are available as a podcast at KLCC.org. Tomorrow, on the show, we chat with Oregon Treasurer Elizabeth Steiner about state programs to help Oregonians save and become more proficient in financial literacy. I'm Michael Dunne, and this has been Oregon On The Record from KLCC. Thanks for listening.
